How much is the information worth?

[golFUR]

I find myself calling on the river with a pretty good idea I'm beat but a strong desire to see how. I want to know what they were willing to play with in whatever situation and they didn't bet enough to make me walk away.

I'm thinking mainly of the early levels in SnGs and in some cases in tournaments, if I believe we'll be playing together long enough for the information to be useful to me. I also know that I do this in limit HE.

I'm curious as to others' comfort in paying for info and what amounts in general are considered worth the trade.

Is there anyone who believes it is de facto incorrect to reduce your stack size in any avoidable way?

Any working theories as to what info is worth?

[cnfuzzd]

Bad habit, IMO. I dont really know tournament play well enough to comment, but i think in cash games, this is the worst reason to call, other than you wanting to give away chips. You are rationalizing your desire to see your loss, and it is costing you money. let the others at the table call down with second best hands, you save your chips.

peace

john nickle

[golFUR]

You are right of course about the ring games. When I say I do it in ring I suppose it should be qualified. I don't ever call bets w/ nothing, purely to see. What I meant for the limit games is more along the lines of calling someone down w/ middle pair good kick or top pair weak kick with a big question mark still over their head. Against some players I know these pockets are no good, against others I 'just have to see' and hope the information is worth if I don't take it down.

The question is more for SnG play and tourn play however. What % of starting stack or what % of the pot would you be willing to call for in order to force a player to show?

I suppose I'll understand if everyone agrees on 0. I won't stop the habit myself until I see something in my numbers that tells me a few tens of chips early in the tourn are costing me late... Personally, I answer this question between 10% and 20%. I don't generally mind, within the first two orbits, spending 50 chips here or 100 chips there if it gives me information that I think will be worth thousands later.

An example that comes off the top of my head is to find out what a certain bet from a loose aggressive maniac means. If s/he is acting table captain, seeing lots of flops and bullying people early on... I will be more than happy to let them gather a few thousand chips on my behalf, I treat them like a savings account, to be tapped later on. Whatever key I need to get in there, I think its worth a minor investment early on. Along the lines of playing a big blind weak/passive to a certain player in order to smash them later, or playing a certain bet amount weak/passive in order to soften someone up for a hit, I think of this as an investment that may or may not pay off, but the ROI seems worth it.

[Monty Cantsin]

Sklansky has a great essay (http://www.twoplustwo.com/pgandl.html) related to this issue.

/mc

[golFUR]

I'm not sure if this question is the opposite exactly or just grammatically...

To phrase it another way, or a situation more often found in game play: On the river, you hold what you believe to be the winning hand. You further believe you can get just a little bit more out of your opponent, if only that he'll have to call the smallest bet for what is in the middle already.. How much would you be willing to let go, in order to check behind and guarantee s/he can't fold to you?

Is the information that your opponent is willing to call x amount with an open end straight draw or middle pair worth enough to let a bet go on the river? What value do you put on a read? Especially in online play, against a complete unknown it can be valuable to know early that someone is willing to bluff out of small blind or was reraising w/ a four flush and not two pair...