"Good" Laydown?

[Louie Landale]

I LAG called, I raised with AK, aggressive villian called 2-bets on the button and 4 of us took the flop. Villian wants to give me a play since he thinks he plays good. And tricky. All the time. Doh!

Flop is K84 2-flush. LAG bets, I call, hehehe, and give button his chance. He just calls. That means he has either AQ, AJ or remotely 88. He doesn't have a K and doesn't have a flush draw.

Turn is a Q making the 3-flush. LAG checks, I bet, button raises, LAG calls 2-bets, and I fold.

Now I went brain-dead here since I gave button his chance to make a play and in fact he is now making his play. He almost definately has AQ, perhaps with the A-draw. I lost continuity in the hand and made the laydown.

But it turns out LAG had flopped two-pair and it stood up.

So was this a good laydown or not?

- Louie

[beerbandit]

it seems to be a lay down that most people would not make. when the lag calls the raise of the button you must know you are beat. your ace must not be of the three flush and your ace and kings outs may not even be good.

i think that i like the call on the flop it keeps the button in and the lag may not try to be so tricky with another player left to act behind. your raising may not force out any flush draws or weaker kings.

since you posted the results it makes it easier to agree with folding

beer

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]


So was this a good laydown or not?

- Louie

[/ QUOTE ]

The ultimate commentary on laydowns, with concurrence from Sklansky.

http://slicer.headsupclub.com:3455/16/31

[Nottom]

I don't see how folding what you think is the best hand can be considered "good"

[Nottom]

Interesting, you would choose that link ...

[ QUOTE ]
In Response To: Re: Top Players: How Many Re-Raises? (Louie Landale)

[/ QUOTE ]


Still one of my favorite classic 2+2 posts.

[Gordon Bierschaum]

Fold here. TPTK isn't that great against two players showing strength. Two pair or set are quite possible.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold here. TPTK isn't that great against two players showing strength. Two pair or set are quite possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only 1 player is really showing strength, and hero has a good read that he is ahead of that player. The other guy is a loose player who is calling becasue thats what loose players do. Even if someone shoed him 2-pair at this point, he likely has the odds to continue anyway given the size of the pot.

[Louie Landale]

Bingo.

Terrible lay down on my part; should have reraised (and lost more to the 2-pair).

And it goes to show you that you shouldn't go out on a limb unless you are pushing the opponent even further out. I manipulated a situation and couldn't handle it when it manifested itself.

- Louie

[Gordon Bierschaum]

That doesn't make sense. First of all, assume you're 100% right about no flush being made. This is a questionable assumption, as the button is playing as if he did. I don't see how ATs would have played that hand any other way. See the flop, call on your draw, raise when it gets there. Your read that he's bluffing better be dead on.
Now if you put the other guy on two pair, maybe the pot odds dicate a call. They certainly don't support a raise. You're getting at best 2:1 on your raise, and those are some poor bet odds. Plus, how many outs do you really have? I don't know the suits of your AK, so it's quite possible that hitting one of your "outs" drops a four flush on the board.

[SA125]

Louie - "And it goes to show you that you shouldn't go out on a limb unless you are pushing the opponent even further out. I manipulated a situation and couldn't handle it when it manifested itself."

I respect your opinion Louie and I have even more respect for the guys who post their mistakes, because you learn more from what you do wrong than what you do right.

All the posts with the hero not winning enough are more hand jobs and "look at me" posts than anything else. The hands you f*cked up and learned from are the ones that will add to or save your bankroll in the furture.

[helpmeout]

Raise the flop if you are reraised then go into call mode.

[Louie Landale]

Villian on the button was SURE to raise with a flush draw on the flop; he being "tricky" and all, against me, and getting perhaps a "fee card".

Yes, raising if blind has two pair is out of the question. But I'm getting 9:1 to outdraw the two-pair with my 8 outs, plenty enough (not counting button).

3-betting on the turn makes sense if AK is the best hand. And it MAY make sense unless blind is a paranoid type and doesn't want to BET two pair into the unlikely flush, but is perfectly willing to call two-bets cold when the flush is more likely (both opponents bet/raised).

- Louie