Anyone up for a _Theory of Poker_ Reading Club? [Archive]

MEbenhoe

08-23-2004, 03:13 PM

Well heres the outline I was able to come up with. I just chose Sunday as a starting date at random. I tried to group similar concepts together so that the discussions on each group of chapters could be more topic specific. Here's what I came up with:

August 29-30: Read Chapters 1-4
August 31: Discussion on 2+2 of Chapters 1-4
September 1-2: Read Chapters 5-7
September 3: Discussion on 2+2 of Chapters 5-7
September 4-5: Read Chapters 8-10
September 6: Discussion on 2+2 of Chapters 8-10
September 7-8: Read Chapters 11-12
September 9: Discussion on 2+2 of Chapters 11-12
September 10-11: Read Chapters 13-15
September 12: Discussion on 2+2 of Chapters 13-15
September 13: Read Chapters 16-17
September 14: Discussion on 2+2 of Chapters 16-17
September 15-16: Read Chapters 18-20
September 17: Discussion on 2+2 of Chapters 18-20
September 18-19: Read Chapters 21-22
September 20: Discussion on 2+2 of Chapters 21-22
September 21-22: Read Chapters 23-25
September 23: Discussion on 2+2 of Chapters 23-25
September 24: Overall Wrap up Discussion

Let me know of what you think of this outline and we can obviously make adjustments. I tried to make this a little more spread out so that people will have time to thoroughly read and discuss the topics in the book.

DrSavage

08-23-2004, 03:21 PM

Let's do it for Hellmuth's book instead!

AKQJ10

08-23-2004, 03:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Let's do it for Hellmuth's book instead!

[/ QUOTE ]

I take it you're joking, but i seriously was thinking about posting some of the hand examples from his Omaha 8 chapter in "Other Poker" and asking people what they thought about the advice.

Observe the different kind of comments generated:
<ul type="square"> ToP: "I trust Sklansky's advice, but i'm not sure i understand exactly how to apply it."

Play Poker Like the Pros: "I sure thought that was a great story of how ol' Phil played in the WSOP. Anybody think i can trust his advice on this hand?"

[/list]

And MEbenhoe, your schedule looks great.

littledave

08-23-2004, 03:38 PM

Such a great idea! I have been a lurker, thinking that everything had been said and not wanting to repeat - and a user of "search".

But this will bring me out into the open!

Looking forward to it! How do you plan to use 2+2 for the discussion? Will this be a thread? Wouldn't it be great if we could have another forum for it?

Thanks very much!

Smokey98

08-23-2004, 03:39 PM

I'm sooo interested in doing this, however what "level" should the player be at in doing this? Reason I ask is because I feel that I'm not prepared for TOP and SSHE would be a better book to do this with. Any thoughts/ideas?

mrjim

08-23-2004, 03:43 PM

I'm not sure I agree, but many say that you should read TOP before SSHE because TOP is a good intro. into advanced topics.

Smokey98

08-23-2004, 03:46 PM

Maybe I'm wrong however I think I've heard that you should read SSHE before TOP as it is just that, a little advanced and SSHE isn't as.

AKQJ10

08-23-2004, 03:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sooo interested in doing this, however what "level" should the player be at in doing this? Reason I ask is because I feel that I'm not prepared for TOP and SSHE would be a better book to do this with. Any thoughts/ideas?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would hope that the discussion would draw various levels of experience. Maybe DS himself will post and tell us how badly we're misinterpreting his writing. /images/graemlins/smile.gif But more to the point, a lot of people have posted that they're struggling to understand ToP, and from what i've seen in the first 12 chapters it's material that's worth fighting through the misunderstanding until you conquer it. Even for beginners!

In fact, i would say that ToP is written on a level that can be understandable to beginners -- i'm a beginner -- but will come easiest to those who've already thought about probability and statistics. So for those who don't have experience in that kind of thinking, i can see how it would be rough sledding. But i wouldn't let that confusion keep you from taking part; to the contrary, i think that's exactly the case where this discussion would be aimed. And obviously i don't expect to grasp everything on the first reading either, so i'm hopeful some of the "old hands" can show me what i've missed.

I'm definitely interested in acquiring SSHE a little down the road and doing this same thing. If you've already got SSHE, or want to read it next, i'd suggest reading ToP along with it; I would suspect the two would reinforce each other as theory and praxis are supposed to do. So they say at least....

KingMarc

08-23-2004, 03:52 PM

I read TOP last week, but I'm in anyway.

charlie_t_jr

08-23-2004, 04:00 PM

If you have read some sort of beginners text, and have played some hands...you need to read TOP, now.

By the way, I'd be in.

mrjim

08-23-2004, 04:02 PM

That's just what others have said. I've read both and I think it's a tough call. I think you need to read somethings before SSHE in order to understand some of the things in SSHE. TOP is one place to get that, but it also gives you a lot that you probably won't understand at that level. So if those are the only two books, I'd probably read TOP first and the SSHE, and then re-read TOP a few dozen times.

AKQJ10

08-23-2004, 04:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I'm wrong however I think I've heard that you should read SSHE before TOP as it is just that, a little advanced and SSHE isn't as.

[/ QUOTE ]

See my previous post on this thread. I haven't read SSHE but my understanding is that the difference between them isn't as much one of "level" (beginner, intermediate, advanced) but scope. SSHE is to my understanding a manual of how to win at a specific poker variant (Texas Hold 'Em) in a specific context (loose, low limit games), and thus it gives specific examples of what to do in what situation, attempting to cover all common situations. If my image of it is remotely correct, then it's a much different scope than ToP.

I don't want to be sacrilegious here -- actually my faith is very important to me -- but an analogy might be comparing the Bible to my company's Employee Handbook. Which one is for "beginners" and which one is "advanced"? I'm not sure that question makes any sense, because one deals with general ethical principles and the other applies ethical principles in a very specific context. To say that i've been meaning to read the Bible, but i'll start out with the handbook because it's more understandable to me, misses the point and forfeits all the benefits of struggling to understand something that's difficult yet fundamental.

Smokey98

08-23-2004, 04:10 PM

Here's my take on why TOP or any advanced book isn't good for beginners (me). These "advanced" books teach you topics such as pot odds, and the likes. I do not think that it's wise for a beginner to even look at these books until they know how to play. What I mean is until they know how to play hands. Like in pre-flop and on the flop. And I can honestly say that I am struggling with this. David makes a point in SSHE and states, "The random nature of poker fundamentally frustrates most people; their learning processes get so confused that they just give up.

My point is, until you know how to play starting hands then the advanced books will do no good. Now, I know how to play starting hands pre-flop, however where I am making the most mistakes is after the flop. I don't know what the hell the problem is. I think that I've went from trying to make a point to confusing myself even more. LOL

MEbenhoe

08-23-2004, 04:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's my take on why TOP or any advanced book isn't good for beginners (me). These "advanced" books teach you topics such as pot odds, and the likes. I do not think that it's wise for a beginner to even look at these books until they know how to play. What I mean is until they know how to play hands. Like in pre-flop and on the flop. And I can honestly say that I am struggling with this. David makes a point in SSHE and states, "The random nature of poker fundamentally frustrates most people; their learning processes get so confused that they just give up.

My point is, until you know how to play starting hands then the advanced books will do no good. Now, I know how to play starting hands pre-flop, however where I am making the most mistakes is after the flop. I don't know what the hell the problem is. I think that I've went from trying to make a point to confusing myself even more. LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason you may be struggling is that you dismiss concepts such as pot odds off as advanced concepts, they're not. I agree that for the beginning player they should start by learning starting hand selection and then learn how to play the flop, turn, and river. However pot odds is huge in learning how to properly play your hand, which is why I believe it to be one of the first concepts you should learn. Even some of your starting hand selection requires the use of pot odds.

MEbenhoe

08-23-2004, 04:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I'm definitely interested in acquiring SSHE a little down the road and doing this same thing. If you've already got SSHE, or want to read it next, i'd suggest reading ToP along with it; I would suspect the two would reinforce each other as theory and praxis are supposed to do. So they say at least....

[/ QUOTE ]

When you first started this thread this idea popped into my head too. When we're done with TOP why not just turn this into some type of "2+2 Reading Club". We could choose a new book each time we finish one, and we could even go outside the 2+2 books if we choose to. Honestly I think myself and some other people would be quite interested in this and I'd be happy to take on the responsibilities of organizing such a thing. Hopefully we could get the authors of the books we're reading to pop into our discussions from time to time as well. Seems like it would be a good way for a lot of people on this site to build up their knowledge and have a solid group of people to discuss ideas with as they read through books.

Smokey98

08-23-2004, 04:20 PM

Ok, I can see that, but to me from reading about pot odds, it seems that the ONLY way that it works is if you play perfect. The same way every single time. Every hand the same way no matter what. So the whole pot odds theory would be skewed.

MEbenhoe

08-23-2004, 04:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Looking forward to it! How do you plan to use 2+2 for the discussion? Will this be a thread? Wouldn't it be great if we could have another forum for it?

[/ QUOTE ]

My plan would be on each discussion day to start a thread titled for example "TOP Chapters 1-4 Discussion". I could start it off with my thoughts on the chapters and any questions I might have and other posters would expand on it from there. Also, anyone else who would want to start the discussion before I post could simply do the same thing themselves. And everyone whos reading along would see these posts and know that this is the spot for discussing what they read.

MEbenhoe

08-23-2004, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I can see that, but to me from reading about pot odds, it seems that the ONLY way that it works is if you play perfect. The same way every single time. Every hand the same way no matter what. So the whole pot odds theory would be skewed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but basically in a very simple form what pot odds is all about is when you have a drawing hand determining how many outs you have and how many non-outs you have. Then determining if the pot gives you the proper odds to make a call given your odds of hitting. For example:

Assume you're playing a $2/$4 game

You: K /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Board: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

It is $2 for you to call.
There is $14 in the pot.

You have 9 cards that will make you a flush and 38 cards that won't out of 47 unseen cards. Therefore the ratio of non-flush cards to flush cards is 38:9 or approximately 4.2:1.

What this means is that the pot should offer you at least 4.2:1 on your money for a call to be a good play in this situation. Because the pot contains $14 and it is only $2 for you to call you are getting 7:1 on your money. Therefore calling is the correct play.

mrjim

08-23-2004, 04:28 PM

I'm certainly no advanced player, but if you have the pre-flop down, I think it's time for TOP. When I was first starting, I based literally all my post-flop decisions on pot odds. Then I added implied odds, reverse implied odds etc. I think it's a good way to get concrete answers to if you should call or fold. I just raised what seemed obvious to me.

Now, after reading SSHE I've started to incorporate other reasons for staying/folding post flop and especially raising for reasons I hadn't considered.

For me, pot odds wasn't an advanced concept, it was the basis for almost all my decisions post flop as a beginner. This isn't a formula for everyone certainly, but it worked for me. Also, it's the foundation for almost everything that comes later, so it needs to come fairly early.

If you are having pre-flop troubles, get a chart and stick to it for now. Worry about deviating from it later to adapt to situations. But for me, a pre-flop starting chart based on position and post-flop decisions based on pot odds are a good place to get started.

mrjim

08-23-2004, 04:29 PM

Excellent example, I was typing too slowly...

AKQJ10

08-23-2004, 04:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I can see that, but to me from reading about pot odds, it seems that the ONLY way that it works is if you play perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, i agree with MEbenhoe that pot odds is a pretty fundamental concept to understand before you can play effectively. FWIW Lee Jones' Winning Low-Limit Hold'Em talks quite a bit about pot odds, and it's considered far more "introductory" than SSHE.

But i think we're confusing fundamental concepts with easy concepts. ToP contains a lot of info that isn't easy, but it's pretty fundamental. Thus, i'd say the earlier you wrestle with this concept until you understand it, the stronger the foundation that you're building on.

Smokey98, i hope you understand that i don't mean the following as a put-down because i want to encourage you in the learning process all i can. I think you're trying to separate the "how" to play poker from the "why" behind certain decisions. Perhaps you can learn how to play like a robot and beat a lot of low-limit games, but i'm not sure that would be the most satisfying way to proceed, nor the most profitable in the long term.

Contrast the following:

<ul type="square"> You should always play Ax-suited on the button for one bet if at least 4 people are in the pot.
Ax-suited is a drawing hand, because you're aiming to flop a draw to the nut flush. Drawing hands depend very much on getting proper pot odds to be profitable. If you play a drawing hand from early position, you may not be confident that you'll get several callers, and someone might raise. Therefore a hand like Ax-suited is far easier to play on the button than under the gun.
[/list]

See the difference? Don't you think the latter statement would give you a much better understanding of when, for example, you want to play Kx-suited or a small pocket pair? But how can you see that connection if all you've done is memorize a table without understanding the "Why?" behind it?

Don't get me wrong, you've gotta get started somehow, and just a few months ago i was memorizing a table (from Carson's book) without really understanding why. Also if SSHE is as good as advertised i would imagine it teaches you to think for yourself, so i'm not implying that it will make you into a robot.

More than anything i'm trying to caution you against an approach that will cripple your understanding, not just of ToP, but of SSHE or any other poker book you might read, and therefore your understanding of poker itself.

Sorry if i'm being harsh. I'm a beginner too, just an opinionated one. I need to keep reminding myself.

My opinion, as stated already, is that anyone would do well to read SSHE and Theory of Poker at the same time, because they seem quite complementary.

Smokey98

08-23-2004, 04:37 PM

Alright, lets do it.

Smokey98

08-23-2004, 04:46 PM

I guess my frustrations come from knowing "well mostly", what plays to make pre-flop and on the flop, but getting busted. So my brain says, "That wasn't a good idea", therefore my play changes and then changes again and again until I don't know what the hell is going on and I go on a perma-tilt. I'm down to do this with you guys, however would it be possible after this book to go back and cover the basics? I don’t really need help with starting out hands, but what to do with a raise in front of you with a certain hand and why and some of the other issues like that. I'd like to know the why and not the how more than anything.

AKQJ10

08-23-2004, 04:49 PM

Excellent example, as mrjim said.

However, to troubleshoot the misunderstanding, i'd like to dig a little deeper. Smokey98 or anyone else who has trouble with pot odds: Do you understand the idea of odds or probabilities? In other words, do you understand why, if your probability of winning a hand is 1/4 (or 0.25), you need 3:1 odds to make that hand worth staying in?

I'm not trying to insult anyone by stepping back and asking this basic question, but i want to make sure that we're not over anyone's head.

If the above is confusing, imagine a game where we flip a coin, and i give you $2 if it's heads, but you give me $1 if it's tails. Would that be a good game to play (from your perspective)?

How about if i have you roll a six-sided die, and i give you $2 if it comes up six, but you give me $1 if it doesn't. Would that be a good game to play?

If you see the difference between those two, you're well on your way to understanding pot odds. But again, i apologize if this is too basic for anyone involved.

MEbenhoe

08-23-2004, 04:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I guess my frustrations come from knowing "well mostly", what plays to make pre-flop and on the flop, but getting busted. So my brain says, "That wasn't a good idea", therefore my play changes and then changes again and again until I don't know what the hell is going on and I go on a perma-tilt. I'm down to do this with you guys, however would it be possible after this book to go back and cover the basics? I don’t really need help with starting out hands, but what to do with a raise in front of you with a certain hand and why and some of the other issues like that. I'd like to know the why and not the how more than anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well to your first comment I'd say that you're playing too results oriented. Making the right play doesnt always mean winning the pot, but it does mean that you'll come out on top in the long run. Keeping the long view when it comes to poker is one of the most important psychological components to poker in my opinion.

As far as your second idea about talking about starting hands and all that, I think this a great idea. Like I said in another post I'd like to turn this into not just a TOP reading club but a just an overall poker book reading club. Maybe after TOP we could do a book such as WLLH or SSHE or another Hold em book and I'm sure this discussion would come up in there.

Smokey98

08-23-2004, 05:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent example, as mrjim said.

However, to troubleshoot the misunderstanding, i'd like to dig a little deeper. Smokey98 or anyone else who has trouble with pot odds: Do you understand the idea before odds? In other words, do you understand why, if your probability of winning a hand is 1/4 (or 0.25), you need 3:1 odds to make that hand worth staying in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe this is where I’m getting confused.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to insult anyone by stepping back and asking this basic question, but i want to make sure that we're not over anyone's head.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don’t worry about that, as I’d rather you insult the hell out of me and I make money.

[ QUOTE ]

If the above is confusing, imagine a game where we flip a coin, and i give you $2 if it's heads, but you give me $1 if it's tails. Would that be a good game to play (from your perspective)?

How about if i have you roll a six-sided die, and i give you $2 if it comes up six, but you give me $1 if it doesn't. Would that be a good game to play?

If you see the difference between those two, you're well on your way to understanding pot odds. But again, i apologize if this is too basic for anyone involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I understand that. The first example you would win $1 on every bet on average. The second example you would win $2 1/6 of the time and loose $1 5/6 of the time. Therefore out of six rolls you would be down $3.

spamuell

08-23-2004, 05:06 PM

Contrary to what others have said, I don't think this is a great example. You haven't said that you're heads up and given the size of the pot, you are almost certainly multiway. Given this, the correct play with the nut flush draw would be raising because you're getting immediate odds of much greater than 1.86:1 (the odds of you making your flush by the river).

I know you probably know this but I get the idea that some others reading this thread might not.

Smokey98

08-23-2004, 05:08 PM

Alright so where do we get started?

AKQJ10

08-23-2004, 05:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I understand that. The first example you would win $1 on every bet on average. The second example you would win $2 1/6 of the time and loose $1 5/6 of the time. Therefore out of six rolls you would be down $3.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good! Then i'm serious in saying that you've almost got the pot odds part down.

OK, go back to MEbenhoe's example. But forget about the poker game for a second. Let's just use the stub with 47 cards left, 9 of them /images/graemlins/spade.gifs. I'm going to deal out one more card. If it's a /images/graemlins/spade.gif, i'll pay you $40. If it's not, you pay me $9. "Fair" game or not? If not, who does this game favor? And how much would i have to pay you for each /images/graemlins/spade.gif so that it would be a break-even game?

Smokey98

08-23-2004, 05:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]

OK, go back to MEbenhoe's example. But forget about the poker game for a second. Let's just use the stub with 47 cards left, 9 of them /images/graemlins/spade.gifs. I'm going to deal out one more card. If it's a /images/graemlins/spade.gif, i'll pay you $40. If it's not, you pay me $9. "Fair" game or not? If not, who does this game favor? And how much would i have to pay you for each /images/graemlins/spade.gif so that it would be a break-even game?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well your chances are 9 out of 47 so that would be 47/9 or 5.2/1 dog as you see 5 cards. The pot odds would be, what, 49/9 so would it be correct to say that it’s 5.4/1. So you’re breaking even right? Well pretty close to it.

burningyen

08-23-2004, 05:26 PM

I just started reading; sign me up!

AKQJ10

08-23-2004, 05:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well your chances are 9 out of 47 so that would be 47/9 or 5.2/1 dog as you see 5 cards. The pot odds would be, what, 49/9 so would it be correct to say that it’s 5.4/1. So you’re breaking even right? Well pretty close to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you're definitely on the right track. But one thing to be careful about is the difference between odds and probability, even though the two are related.

You've correctly calculated the probability of getting a /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the next card as 9/47 or 1/5.2. However, when you talk about odds, you have to deduct out the 9 from the 47, so the odds are 38:9 against you, or 4.2:1.

In other words, probability is (successes / successes + failures)

Odds are successes : failures, or in this case we stated it as failures : successes. You have to state whether you're a favorite or an underdog because otherwise it would be ambiguous what you mean by 4.2 : 1 or 1 : 4.2.

See the difference?

As Zehn

08-23-2004, 05:29 PM

Being a newbie myself I find this to have a +$18 EV calculated as follows;
9 spades @ $40 = $360.00
38 non-spades @ $ 9 = -$342.00

Smokey98

08-23-2004, 05:30 PM

Ok so if you are a 5/1 dog on getting that flush and only 4/1 pot odds, would the correct play be to fold?

AKQJ10

08-23-2004, 05:39 PM

Yep!

But one subtlety not yet mentioned, in addition to spamuell's valid points (which are a little beyond our scope right now), is that the example MEbenhoe gave sounds like it's calculated after the flop, when two cards are left. To simplify things both he and i are talking about the odds as they relate to one card, i.e. to making your flush by the turn.

The odds of making the flush by the river with a 4-flush on the flop are 1.8:1 IIRC, anyway somewhere around 2:1, but the math to calculate that is a little more advanced than this discussion so i'll save it. And as spamuell points out there are other considerations like the likelihood that others will call your bet on this or future rounds of betting, but we'll come to that in due course as we work through ToP.

AKQJ10

08-23-2004, 05:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Being a newbie myself I find this to have a +$18 EV calculated as follows;
9 spades @ $40 = $360.00
38 non-spades @ $ 9 = -$342.00

[/ QUOTE ]

Gut gemacht! Just one more step you need. +$18 is the EV for 47 games of "Is the Next Card a Spade?" where we shuffle that same 47-card stub after each game. So $18/47 -> $0.38 is the EV for each game.

MEbenhoe

08-23-2004, 05:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Contrary to what others have said, I don't think this is a great example. You haven't said that you're heads up and given the size of the pot, you are almost certainly multiway. Given this, the correct play with the nut flush draw would be raising because you're getting immediate odds of much greater than 1.86:1 (the odds of you making your flush by the river).

I know you probably know this but I get the idea that some others reading this thread might not.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is definitely not true in all situations. Now if you're last to act I would raise in that situation. Also when calculating pot odds you dont calculate the odds of hitting on the turn or river when making your call. You calculate the odds of hitting on the next card. The reason for this is that in order to see the turn and river you don't just have to call the $2 bet on the flop but the $4 bet on the turn. This is why if you're last to act its a good idea to raise as to avoid someone betting into you on the turn if you dont hit your flush. Thus the idea of the free card. However for the purposes of what my example was to show these concepts arent 100% relevant to him purely understanding the idea of pot odds.

Because not all draws are flush draws your thinking is slightly incorrect. For example if you have an inside straight draw, the odds of you hitting it on the next card are 10.75:1 while the odds of hitting by the river are just over 5:1. So if you have to call a $2 bet in a $12 pot on the flop do pot odds make this call correct? No, because you will only hit straight on the next card 8.5% of the time, and when you dont hit you will be forced to call another bet if you want to continue to the river. This is why when considering pot odds it is best to use the odds of hitting on the next card and not the odds of hitting by the river. The only time these odds would come into play would be in deciding whether to call a bet from a player who would be all in.