AJo, UTG+1. Party 3/6. no animals were harmed in the...

[bisonbison]

I've been at this table for a long Sunday afternoon, and I've won 2 big pots in the last orbit. BB is decent and the button just sat down 2 hands ago.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="666666">4 folds</font>, Button <font color="purple">(new guy)</font> calls, SB <font color="purple">(Decent)</font> calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>,

Flop: (9 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Decent bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, new guy calls, Decent folds.

Turn: (7 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, new guy calls.

River: (9 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
What should hero do? Bet/check-fold/check-call and why?

[Guy McSucker]

I can't see any way of telling if you're ahead or behind here, but I would usually expect you to be behind, especially if you check and your opponent bets.

Having come this far and with a pot this large, though, check-fold looks ugly.

I am all at sea and don't know whether I'm coming or going, so I bet and fold to a raise. It's either a value bet or a bluff; I have no way of telling which.

By the way, are you sure the decent player was decent? Betting the flop and folding to one raise looks a bit weird to me.

Guy.

[bisonbison]

By the way, are you sure the decent player was decent? Betting the flop and folding to one raise looks a bit weird to me.

Well, 400 hands with him yesterday, 16% in, 8% raise, aggressive postflop, no notes on idiot moves.

I think he was trying to push me off overcards cause he felt I was playing my rush by raising a lot preflop.

[Prod1gy]

Check-fold. He called raises preflop and on the flop, then called a bet on the turn. He probably has something better than ace high.

[eh923]

I vote for firing one last shot.

Preflop, I put him on a medium pair, or two broadway cards.

On the flop, those hands still seem reasonable, as does a spade draw. The medium pair looks less likely though since the board was so small, and he didn't 3-bet (unless, he's paranoid of a larger pair).

The turn pretty much kills the thought of spades since you're heads up and he didn't raise. Of course, if you're drawing thin or dead, and he wants to extract the minimum, that's not bad either! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I don't see how the river would help any of the hands I'd put him on. Even though you're unimproved, you can still bet safely.
1. If he has a hand, your check will induce a bet, and you'll be getting 10-1, so you should call.
2. He hasn't raised yet, so I can't see why he would now.
3. If he has the higher end of nothing (AK, AQ, or even AJ), he might fold.
4. If he has the lower end of nothing (AT, A9, etc.), he might call. If he folds, it's no big deal.

Anyway, I can't see you getting screwed, unless you folded to a bluff raise on the river. I also don't see him betting a worse hand than AJ, so inducing a bluff is only asking for trouble.

eh923

[sthief09]

I think it's time to check and fold. the only draw he could've had on the flop is spades, and those hit. I don't think many players would call the flop with worse overcards. the only thing I can think of that you beat is the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif with an unpaired card. Betting and calling isn't too wrong (if wrong at all) either. I'd say betting is the only move you can make that's bad.

I have a feeling that he has some sort of medium pocket pair and won't bet after you check anyway.

[bisonbison]

I'd say betting is the only move you can make that's bad.

Well, i bet and he called and I stored this hand away for future posting because this comes up a ton for me playing 3/6 and being as aggro as I am with overcards.

Question for self: When I have as good a non-pair as AJo, am I ever actually folding a better hand with a river bet?

By the way, results: <font color="white">the button held KK. Nothing surprises me anymore. </font>

[eh923]

Based on frequency, it's unlikely you're against AK - AJ, but it's VERY conceivable that someone would (a) cold-call with these hands, and (b) fold to a river bet unimproved with these hands. Hey, this dipstick never raised KK, which most would say is inconceivable...escpecially that Sicilian from "The Princess Bride".

The reason I like the bet more, is that a check will probably result in a bet from your opponent. Getting 10-1, you should call, so why not be the aggressor in case you CAN get a better hand to fold?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Question for self: When I have as good a non-pair as AJo, am I ever actually folding a better hand with a river bet?

[/ QUOTE ]


not without a read. I generally play the complete opposite way online. I assume that none of my opponents will ever fold a better hand than mine (unless I'm betting with small cards because I missed a draw). I never make moves to push people off hands when I'm playing online. I'm sure I miss some opportunities to make a better hand fold, but overall I think it's probably a good philosophy.

[bisonbison]

I think the bet is -EV because a better hand will so rarely fold, so routinely call and may not bet if checked to.

[sthief09]

you bring up good points, but the reason I like checking is because a lot of hands that beat me won't bet, like 55. it makes getting to showdown cheaper.

[BeerMoney]

What do you guys think about the turn bet after he called two cold?

I hate overcards out of position.

[Danenania]

I think when the J-high flush draw shows up, it's an easy bet as Hero is calling a bet anyway. Without the flush draw I'd probably check/fold on the turn.

[sthief09]

most of the time you ahve 6 clean outs on the turn. check-folding is pretty weak-tight here. when you get raised, you can just throw it away. keep in mind that if the /images/graemlins/spade.gif hadn't fallen, his opponent still could have a flush draw.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]

not without a read. I generally play the complete opposite way online. I assume that none of my opponents will ever fold a better hand than mine (unless I'm betting with small cards because I missed a draw). I never make moves to push people off hands when I'm playing online. I'm sure I miss some opportunities to make a better hand fold, but overall I think it's probably a good philosophy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like that line of play thief.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
you bring up good points, but the reason I like checking is because a lot of hands that beat me won't bet, like 55. it makes getting to showdown cheaper.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thief, if you had 55 on the button here, would you raise the turn if bet into assuming the bettor is on overcards?

[J.R.]

If the flush draw hadn't come, I think betting and folding to a raise on the turn is bad, especially if you think check-folding is pretty weak. You will be getting 10-1 to call a raise, and its the button who is still in the hand so the risk of being againt a 6 is perhaps less than had the raise came from one of the blinds. In addition, there is still a two flush on board, meaning you could be up against a semibluff, and you have two overcards (assuming the turn card is below T). The presence of the pair on board also makes me doubt the turn raise even more, as party player's love to bluff/semi-bluff with a pair on the board, especially agaisnt a pfr on a raggedy baord where ther eis a good chance the pfr will lay down big overcrads. I like bet and call a raise unless agisnt a weak tight straightforward type.


In the hand as played I think the river is a clear check as no better hand folds, and the issue is whether the button will bluff with enough hands to make a call right. I agree with others who have suggested there are a number of better hands (ie small pairs) that will check behind here, yet there are also hopeless hands such as missed single spades that may bluff as that's the only way they can win this pot. I think I lean towards check-call as a default in a party 3-6 game, you will catch enough bluffs and some better hands check behind. I think the pair on the baord is good for you, as it makes it unlikely the button has one of the case sixes, so that means there are only 3 board cards instead of 5 that the button coud have paired up with (unless the button has a pocket pair).

[StellarWind]

I would fold the flop. You are getting 10-1 to play a junky 6-out draw with a two-flush on board. You will often be drawing dead. Your position is terrible, both now and after you make your hand.

You invested 3 BB postflop in this hand without doing anything unusual. I don't see how that can be profitable.

I would not bet the river because I can only beat a bluff. I'm not sure if it is worth a call. Probably not. There don't seem to be any busted draws that might bluff. The best hope is something like Ax and the players who might have that will usually take the free showdown. They can't visualize my laying down AK because they never fold their own aces.

[J.R.]

I never make moves to push people off hands when I'm playing online

I call BS. Whether you conciously know it or not, your aggressive style of play will achieve this result, and even if you are just semibluffing as opposed to running a pure bluff or throwing in an extra raise in a big pot where the call/raise decision is close, you are, at least in part, hoping a better hand folds. Running pure bluffs in party LL games is generally not the best strategy, but such moves have their spots, although they arise infrequently.

[bisonbison]

I would fold the flop. You are getting 10-1 to play a junky 6-out draw with a two-flush on board. You will often be drawing dead. Your position is terrible, both now and after you make your hand.

I think this flop play is too weak. I don't have a read on the button, but I don't see many hands the BB would call here with preflop that include a 6, so my six outs are likely very live against what is most likely a medium pocket pair, a 2 or a worse A suited to the spades. If the button folds and the BB calls I can check through the turn unimproved.

I think my river play is clearly not ideal, but I'm pretty happy with how I played the rest of the hand.

[sthief09]

I don't know if I came off that way, but I wouldn't fold to a raise on the turn with a pretty good 4-flush.

[sthief09]

no, but I don't see how that relates to anything.

[sthief09]

you win /images/graemlins/smile.gif

but I mean that in a live game, I can make moves like raising overcards to push someone off what I know is a weak holding. online they'll call down with bottom pair. in a live game, you can usually get people to fold something weak, and bluffing with overcards is often a good move.

[Danenania]

Saying "most of the time you have 6 clean outs" means that all the time, you have less than 6 clean outs. You can't count only the ideal scenarios.

[bisonbison]

Saying "most of the time you have 6 clean outs" means that all the time, you have less than 6 clean outs. You can't count only the ideal scenarios.

And some not inconsiderable amount of the time, you don't need to count outs because you are, in fact, ahead.

[Danenania]

But you still need to count outs. I think just deciding "I'm ahead, I'm done with it" is going overboard. You need to combine the odds that you're ahead with the number of outs that you have if you're not ahead with the chance the guy will fold if you bet with such and such a holding, etc. These are all important factors.

That said, I think I retract my previous check/fold the turn without a flush draw statement because it looks like the odds probably are there to continue. However, I don't think you can always count on having 6 outs. For one thing there will be plenty of times when the villain played 76s or something and has you drawing dead. He'll also raise the turn, making it worse. It would fit with his line of play. It's not an extremely common scenario but it shouldn't be totally ignored. Even poor players who call 2 cold on the flop usually have something they like, draw, monster, or otherwise.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this flop play is too weak. I don't have a read on the button, but I don't see many hands the BB would call here with preflop that include a 6, so my six outs are likely very live against what is most likely a medium pocket pair, a 2 or a worse A suited to the spades. If the button folds and the BB calls I can check through the turn unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]
You sound like you have forgotten that you have three opponents, not two, and that two of them have yet to act. If any of them have a six you get drenched in blood. It also seems naive to expect many free cards so far out of position.

I agree that BB is not likely to have a six. He'd probably checkraise you. But the same applies to a flush draw because he can't expect to take this pot with a bet. If BB has a two it will often be A2 which kills three outs. If he only has a pocket pair he may still 3-bet you and bet the turn. You said your table image might cause him to play you for overcards so this makes perfect sense. The first flop raise from a player like you doesn't prove anything.

Not that you mentioned it, but I also give very little credit on the flop for the best-hand idea. BB sounds like he has a pair. But even as the hand played out--with the miracle of folding BB and UTG+2 and Button just calling all the way--there still isn't a consensus that calling the river is worthwhile. So our hand might be good and stay good once in a blue moon, but it's a hard thing to play for.

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-fold. He called raises preflop and on the flop, then called a bet on the turn. He probably has something better than ace high.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd think so, right? Wrong. While I don't necessarily agree with hero's play here, I think this line of reasoning is very weak.

Yesterday I had T9s in the BB, called a raise against 4 players, the board was something like 48J24. I flopped a flush draw, check-raised a four-player field, three called. Bet the turn when I missed. One caller (PF raiser folded). I checked the river intending to check-fold, and villain turned over 56o. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Depending on how I'm running I might make this river bet too. However I hate trying to bluff the new guy. He just never seems to fold his first hand.

NT