Bellagio 15-30 hand

So I headed out to Vegas for the weekend to get away from this dang L.A. heat.


I'm playing 15-30 at the Bellagio. There are 4 limpers in a 9 handed game, when the button raises. He's aggressive, but a fairly alright player. I call in the BB w/ A2d


6 players see the flop. I won't give you a bio on all of them, just one player in middle position (MP) who recently came over from a 4-8 or 8-16 game. He's dragged a large pot w/ 92d, Q8o, all the great hands. He's up big, and the previous hand he called 3 bets w/ QTo, and put in three bets on the 542 flop with said hand (including a checkraise by him). I won't say MP is a maniac, but he's not straightforward. Okay, fine, he's a bit of a maniac,


Back to the hand...Flop comes A63, with one diamond, giving me top pair, slightly not-too-great of a kicker, backdoor flush, gutshot straight.


I check, MP bets, all fold to button who raises.


The button here would raise any medium/big pocket pair, and any big ace. MP could have any two cards, really.


I threebet, mostly for information, but also to knock out MP if he's fooling around w/ 87s or some such crap.


I normally don't like to make it heads up when there's a decent (50%?) chance I'm dominated, but was willing to in this case, for the sake of simplifying the rest of the hand.


Well, so much for plans. MP 4-bets it, button calls, I call, knowing I need an A245 or diamond to continue.


Turn is a black 7. Check, bet, call, and I Muck.


Comments?


(MP showed 66 for a flopped set, button didn't show. But I don't care about the results. I just am curious as to your thoughts on my flop play. A friend of mine thought I was WAY out of line. I felt that, at worst, I was slightly outta line. Comments? Thanks)


Josh

Fold the flop. You may have the worst hand.

Bet and raise to you--fold!!


Anyway, I'm back from Europe. I took a peek at Baden-Baden's casino but didn't play.

You 3 bet for information? You need to talk to Sklansky about that. I hope he reads this.


Vince

Vince -


I'm assuming, though I haven't read it anywhere, that Sklansky is largely against 3-betting for information? I'm guessing he'd say something along the lines of "gosh, if it's two bets to you, do you need to put in a third bet to really find out?"


If that's the case, then I'd say, yes. I'm playing against 2 opponents who would have any one of a very large number of hands. Very large number.


It was a pot that was fairly large before I acted on the flop (about 8 bets). I'm not unique. I like winning large pots. And there was a decent chance that I was already ahead (say, somewhere around 20 to 30% chance).


So, yeah, I threebet for info. I can honestly say I don't think I ever have before. And I don't think I can say that it was definitely the right thing to do. But given the pot size, my opponents, and my hand, I can't think it was TOO wrong.


Do YOU have any thoughts on the hand?


Josh

Assuming the player who raised on the flop- knows the same things you do (which im assuming he does-

because you've portrayed him as being relatively solid)-- wouldnt you raise in his position with a pocket pair there?? He knows the flop bettor- is a maniac also. I dont think three-betting the flop is a bad play at all. And your rationale makes sense to me.


But that being said- i might also raise the turn with a big pair too- in his spot- even if lead into again.


I guess the real question is- despite the 'wide variety of hands' he showed down. How has our 'maniac' been playing after the flop? There are plenty of em that play any hand- but then play relatively straightforward after the flop.

That would make a huge difference here.


If he was just ridiculously out of line- all the time- i dont know why three-betting the flop is a bad play- at all.

Josh, my thoughts...


I would have folded. In this situation you are going to have to show down the best hand to win this pot 90+% of the time. With two bets already in on the flop you are looking at 3 big bets or more to showdown. I don't like that investment with top-pair, playing the board for kicker. The chance that you are beat already plus the chance that one of them will outdraw you gives this play a bad price in my opinion. Once you three-bet and get called you are pretty much in there for a showdown so you are not just risking the three small bets, but two additional big bets as well.


Secondly, given your description of MP, why did you think he would fold for $30?


Regards,


Paul Talbot

I'm assuming, though I haven't read it anywhere, that Sklansky is largely against 3-betting for information? I'm guessing he'd say something along the lines of "gosh, if it's two bets to you, do you need to put in a third bet to really find out?"


He'll actually have something to say about the accuracy of the information compared to the size of the pot. Given that you are playing against a guy who checkraised a 5-4-2 flop wth QTo, you don't figure to get very accurate information. Very accurate information is what you would need to fold on the flop after 3-betting. You will never get information this accurate. Usually you will have to call anyway because of the size of the pot and the chance that you do have 3 outs.


Also, if that information doesn't or can't change your actions, then it isn't really worth much. For example, when the MP 4-bets the flop you still call.

If he was just ridiculously out of line- all the time- i dont know why three-betting the flop is a bad play- at all.


Because:

1) This maniac will only fold hands that have no hope when you three-bet.

2) He will call with all decent draws when you three-bet, and the pot is big.

3) He will four-bet any hand that beats you.

4) If he four-bets you still can't fold.

5) If you three-bet the button might fold KK or another hand that is drawing slim.

If you three bet and just get called, well you are probably way behind, and if you three bet and get raised... well you are probably way behind. So you get no information, and for the same money as it cost you to three bet and get raised on the flop you could have check called the turn and given yourself two chances to improve or check folded the turn and saved a bet.


seanEmac