Hand from LOP tourney

[SoBeDude]

I just played this hand yesterday in one of the Legends of Poker events at the Bike. The event was the $500 Pot Limit event.

One of the well known pros was at the table, and after we both busted, we talked about this hand. Before I mention his comments here's the hand:

Blinds are 50/100.
I'm in the BB with A8o. Its folded to the button who limps, the SB completes, I check. Being pot-limit I can't bet enough to make these guys lay down much of the time, so I'd rather see a cheap flop here.

Flop is A 2 4 Rainbow.

I'm ready to bet the flop when the small blind throws out a healthy bet of 450.

My instincts tell me he's betting 2 pair or a set here and my ace is no good.

I think what hands he'd bet here and I think he had to have a nice hand to make this bet, but not the straight. First, I don't think he'd complete with 35. Second, he wouldn't bet it to try to trap someone. He is not an aggressive player.

I have to put him on 2 pair, probably A2 or A4

So I fold and the button throws out a big raise, they both go all in and both show A2 for a chopped pot.

Of course, the river was an 8 which would have made me the winner.

I mentioned at the table after the hand that I folded A8o, hence the later dialogue with the Pro.

I think I made a good laydown when I was way behind and layed down a hand with essentially 3 outs (unless the board makes a running pair or the 4 pairs).

Any comments?

-Scott

[sdplayerb]

1) How did he bet 450 at a 300 pot at pot limit?

2) Your post is missing stack sizes. That has a pretty big effect here.

Independent of those thing, I think it is a good fold, and the reason is you went with your gut. Warning bells went off. Some might say it was a weak/tight fold, but if your gut is saying you are beat, and your gut is usually right, go with it. I've stayed alive more than a few times on hands I really should have gone broke on due to my gut.
You should see from this your gut is right.

I'm interested in who the pro is.

SD

[SoBeDude]

I messed up the blinds. they were 100-200.

So he bet 450 into a 600 pot.

I don't remember stacks exactly but SB was short with around 3K. I had him covered with about 4.5K and Button covered us both.

-Scott

[ScottC]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is a good fold, and the reason is you went with your gut. Warning bells went off.

[/ QUOTE ]I also agree it was a good fold, but it really seems this was more than "gut". I see gut as more intuition or non-conscious decision making, while this was based on your very sound observation of the player and understanding how he would play certain hands. And that analysis was spot on, namely, that you were dead to three outs (unless you're toking yourself, but that's another issue ;-).

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it is a good fold, and the reason is you went with your gut. Warning bells went off.

[/ QUOTE ]I also agree it was a good fold, but it really seems this was more than "gut". I see gut as more intuition or non-conscious decision making, while this was based on your very sound observation of the player and understanding how he would play certain hands. And that analysis was spot on, namely, that you were dead to three outs (unless you're toking yourself, but that's another issue ;-).

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you.

I was really just suprised that a very well known pro called my fold weak-tight.

-Scott

[sdplayerb]

I 100% agree with how you define gut.
Your sub-conscious can often do the analysis quicker than you can do the analysis to convince yourself.

[sdplayerb]

With the SBs stack size, I am definitely raising there.
That 600 raise would be a large portion of his stack.
If the stacks were deep, I would agree with the call.

And are you going to tell us who the pro was and more on what he said?

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
I 100% agree with how you define gut.
Your sub-conscious can often do the analysis quicker than you can do the analysis to convince yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused. in your earlier post above it seemed you prefer raising, yet here you seem OK with my fold.

Which is it?

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
With the SBs stack size, I am definitely raising there.
That 600 raise would be a large portion of his stack.
If the stacks were deep, I would agree with the call.

And are you going to tell us who the pro was and more on what he said?

[/ QUOTE ]

His read was that the SB probably had a weak ace and a gutshot to the straight. He felt I should play my A8o and play it strongly.

I told him I put him on 2 pair and that I felt I was behind. The cards proved me right.

The Pro was Men the Master. A very nice guy I. I played with him at my table in two tournies. I enjoyed playing with him. Much more so than playing with Amir Vahedi (total action, mouthy), and Hasan Habib who didn't say a single word.

-Scott

[sdplayerb]

In my earlier I said I think you should have raised preflop.
My comment here was in regard to your play postflop. I agree with your fold postflop, based upon your read/gut.

Did Men tell you which part of it was weak/tight?

I've played with him once, and did enjoy it. It was early in my career, I was not too excited when I drew him at my first table of my of my first $200 Limit tourneys (which I no longer play). I also had Dan Alspach, who is having a great year (final table at that 6 person max per table event, plus others).

My only real conversation with him was when I reraised somebody after having barely played a hand. After winning on the turn (he wasn't in the hand) he said AA, KK or QQ, trying to impress with his reading skills.
I showed the KK and said "I've hardly played a hand, how many hands could it be?" He nodded in agreement.
He won the tourney and dominated at the bubble portion. I enjoyed playing with him too. He actually didn't get mad when I made a big suckout on him when forced to go in in the blinds.

Are you playing the $5,000 or any of the supersats? I plan on playing the 3:15 on Wednesday.

SD

[SoBeDude]

He thought my fold on the flop was weak. He made no mention of my preflop check. If it was a NL tourney, I'd might have pushed all in.

He actually didn't get mad when I made a big suckout on him when forced to go in in the blinds.

He got sucked out on by a young kid at my table and he didn't get upset then either. He had AA, made a pot-sized raise. got called by the button. made another big bet on the 9-high flop, and the button went all-in with J9. Men called, turned over AA and a 9 popped out on the river. He didn't say a word. Perhaps after its happened the 5,000th time it no longer upsets you?

I goaded Men into showing me his hand once during the PL event. 4 (or 5?) limpers (blinds $15) and I jam a pot sized raise from the big blind. Men and another call. Flop is 678 rainbow. I bet 250, Men pushes all in. I looked at him and said "What hand would you call my pot-sized bet with that makes you a straight?!??" I folded my QQ, and he turned over his 45spades.

I've left LA and already come home, so no more of the events for me. After 7 tournies of putting my money in with the best of it, and losing every time to a 2-4 outer, I decided to call it quits and come home early.

Losing with the best hand EVERY tourney gets frustrating.

-Scott

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]

I've left LA and already come home, so no more of the events for me. After 7 tournies of putting my money in with the best of it, and losing every time to a 2-4 outer, I decided to call it quits and come home early.

Losing with the best hand EVERY tourney gets frustrating.


[/ QUOTE ]

Get more chips than the other guy so he doesn't bust you when he sucks out.

[sdplayerb]

Sorry it didn't work out man.
My reference to his not getting mad on my suckout was due to how mad he was when getting knocked out at the WSOP.
I think it depends on how many Corona's he has had.

I like him better than his cousin Minh who sucked out on me to stop me from getting a huge stack at the $330 event (i won't replay it sinde I went over it in my trip report)..but I liked him until then as we were the only ones chatting (when my ear buds weren't in).

Sorry I won't see you at the supersats.

SD

[sdplayerb]

what would you have done with the A8 preflop?

[SoBeDude]

Easy come easy go.

I've just had a month of losing to totally dominated hands in every tourney I played. It started at the Shoe when my KK all-in against Q8o flops a king and still loses to the runner-runner straight. Followed the next day to KJ losing to QJ on a 2JJ board and a Q pops up on the turn.

My luck followed me to LA. JJ all in against 22 and 2 on the river. AJ vs AT and a T on the flop. KK vs AK and 2 aces on the board. QQ vs KQ and KQ makes a straight.

Lets hope it missed the plane-ride back to South Beach.

I'll be at the Borgata next month for the WPT event there. I hope I fare better.

Some people pray for good luck. I'll settle for average.

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

Get more chips than the other guy so he doesn't bust you when he sucks out.

Every suckout didn't bust me. many times I did have my opponent covered, but the suckout left me short. Eventually one I didn't have covered got me. Still I went down swinging with the best hand.

And all these tournies were tight on starting chips. There wasn't a lot of room to miss a big pot and still be in decent shape in chips.

-Scott