Two great examples of opponents waiting till the river.

[nepenthe]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Note Opponent: plays way too many hands, likes to slowplay a lot.

Preflop: nepenthe is UTG with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
nepenthe calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">nepenthe bets</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">nepenthe bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (5.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, nepenthe checks.

I really feel like I should've bet, but the quick, almost perfunctory way in which he checked smelled like a flush waiting to pop.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 5.50 BB, between SB and nepenthe.</font>
/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Hand 2:

No notes on opponent.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: nepenthe is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, nepenthe calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (3.33 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">nepenthe bets</font>, BB calls, MP2 folds.

What the hell. Only two opponents, noone showing anything worth crap, I'll take a stab and maybe win it right there. Any raises, S&amp;G etc. and I'm gone.

Turn: (2.66 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, nepenthe checks.

River: (2.66 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">nepenthe bets</font>, BB calls.

Bah. Every imaginable draw got there and he keeps checking? I'll bet, I may win it and if not, seems as if I'll tie with any pair, two pair, set...

Final Pot: 4.66 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 4.66 BB, between BB and nepenthe.</font>

[Danenania]

Hand 1 I'd bet the river and fold to a raise (unless he's laggy then call a raise). I think the so-called "perfunctory check" is probably just a rationalization for you to wimp out.

Hand 2 looks pretty bad to me. There is no point in taking a stab at this flop as there are only 3 SB in the pot. If you had at least A high it would be a little different as you might have the best hand. The thing that we love about our 3/6 fish is they NEVER FOLD. You can't have it both ways. I don't like the river bet because he will call you with anything and might checkraise you with the 9 or flush. You also give him a good spot to bluff-raise if he's aggressive enough to do it. I don't see how you could call a raise in this spot.

[nepenthe]

There's a four-flush on the board in hand 1, of which I have none. He could have a small flush card and is checking with the intention of calling a bet. I doubt he has the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, but truly, what hands am I beating that he would call with? I in fact like the check better now.

As for hand 2, I tend to like the flop bet. Lots of opponents will fold here for one SB if they have nothing. Yes, A weak Ace-high will also often fold. The river bet is more of a meh, as I probably would not have called a checkraise. But it's the opponents' hands that are more interesting really. Will post results in a bit.

[nepenthe]

The fact that there are only 3 SB in the pot in Hand 2 is the reason to take a stab at the pot, as opponents with nothing (or even with very little something) may well fold for 1SB.

[Danenania]

Not at the PartyPoker I know and love, but if you think you have a read then go for it.

Hand 1 I don't think there's really any particular reason to think that he has a spade. He might, but I think a 7,3, or 2 are his most probable holdings. And yes he will almost surely call a river bet if he called you down this far with one of them. If there were more players in with you then I'd be more worried about the flush.

[MrHorace]

Hand 1: I go w/Danenania, bet the river, and fold to a raise. If he is unsure of beating you, he'll call and you could win 1 extra bb. If he comes back firing w/a raise, you can be comfortable believing he has the flush, and can fold.
You're right though, he may have thought his flush was weak.

[nepenthe]

(edited for addendum)

Danenania, I see you around on PP occasionally. If you had something like A3o (assume no spades) in the BB, do you call the flop bet in Hand 2 as a default play against an unknown? If so, why? If not, then you must believe that there are plenty others who do the same. Yes, PP 3/6 is full of fishes but there are also a good amount of people who make the correct laydowns if you give them the reason to do so, esp. in a small pot. I don't need for this play to work all the time for this line to be profitable. I see button stealing small pots at Party 3/6 ALL THE TIME against 1 or two players, and rightfully so.

[Danenania]

No, I don't. Because it's a crappy play.

The odds are that on any given hand you are playing against the fish, not the good players. The fish play most of the hands. The good players play very few.

The button can steal small pots from me all day. Especially when I have Q-high and no draws. When I have top pair and get called down to the river by a double backdoor gutshot draw things will even up pretty fast.

You need it to work nearly 1/3 of the time and you might get checkraised with a flop like that. I'm sorry but counting on unknown PartyPoker players to fold that much is silly.

[daveymck]

Everyone thinks SSH is making them become more laggy I think its making me think almost more passivley.

Hand 1

You are ahead on the flop but are not going to like any spade or any overcard, your hand is really weak against redraws, the pot is small but any high spade is calling this down, if you had the 8 spades then I like the bet out as it may fold 10ish and lower spades. The J is a card I dont want to see and again the turn the pot is small dont really see a reason to bet again a spade is not folding and is getting correct odds to call down. I check the river here as well.

In summary hand 1 pot is small, marginal hand get to showdown as cheap as possible. I prefer only betting one street and that is the turn if no spade turns up.

Hand 2

The pot is tiny once I get a caller on the flop I will just check it down, the board has a straight on it I doubt he is going to fold and he could try and bluff raise it and its not worth it for such a small pot. Chances are this is a split pot anyway but he has no reason to think you have a 9.

Will be interesting for me to see how I start playing tomorrow night once I get my first real session since trying to absorb some of the SSH standards.

[nepenthe]

If I get checkraised I'm of course folding as I said earlier. I honestly don't think the play having to work roughly 1/3 of the time against two players, one of whom is the BB, is too much to ask. I see it all the time. Either they have a hand worth calling with, or they don't. MP2 player in Hand 2 isn't likely to have anything due to the raggish nature of the board. BB might have a small crappy pair with which he may or may not call.

You say: "The odds are that on any given hand you are playing against the fish, not the good players. The fish play most of the hands. The good players play very few."

But the greater possibility that I'm against two fishes as opposed to two good players does not, as you imply, make my flop bet less desirable by default. This is because good players also tend make better laydowns (esp. in a small pot) than the fish, thus I don't see the likelihood of my winning the pot right there diminished by much (if at all).

You also seem to underestimate the ability of the fish to make correct laydowns if given a reason to do so (and, remember, I don't know these players to be "fish" - they may actually be decent, as many 3/6 players are). While fish may PLAY a lot of the hands, it doesn't necessarily mean that they SEE THE RIVER with most hands. Add to that the possibility that I may well improve by the turn (my flop bet likely allows me to take the free card otherwise) or river, plus the possibility that I actually presently have the best hand, PLUS the added likelihood that my opponents actually don't have anything since they checked to me, and I don't see anything wrong with this flop bet. If anyone checkraises me, calls, or pulls a S&amp;G, I'm done with the hand (unless called and I improve on turn), losing 1SB and moving on with a clear conscience.

(edited for minor correction/addendum)

[nepenthe]

I don't know daveymck, I like a bet out in Hand 1 most of the time especially in an unraised pot. My betting out against a sizeable field may well induce a small spade such as a 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif to fold right there. Once everyone but the SB folds, I think it's only natural for me to put him on a spade draw and check the river. I don't see any reason to be afraid of the J on the turn.

[Danenania]

We're not going to accomplish anything by argument. You think they will fold 1/3 of the time. I don't think they will. There's not really a way to validate either other than experience or a whole ton of PT stats. I still think it's a -EV bet that goes along with an overagressive-in-small-pots -EV mindset, but we can agree to disagree.

Part of the reason I'm interested in this debate is that I used to take this same line often and had similar reasons as you. I feel that as I have improved, I have learned to stop taking stabs at tiny pots against generally poor, passive players. I think it's helped me, but I could of course be wrong. My winrate has gone up, but that might be due to other more significant factors.

I don't mean any offense by my suggestions. Just trying to share some of what I've learned.

I also hope our little flop debate hasn't taken your attention away from the real mistake in the hand, the river bet. That's more important.

[nepenthe]

Hand 1: 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hand 2: 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Opponent 1 probably saved a bet or 2 by not checkraising the flop. If he did checkraise, and had the gumption to bet the river (probably not), I would've folded.

Opponent in hand 2 quipped, "Was trying to slowplay...'s all good." /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[nepenthe]

No Danenania, debates such as these are the reason I post hands. I of course take no offense by your generous participation and I would be dismayed at myself if I happened to offend you or anyone else by responding. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I do feel that my river bet in Hand 2 was wrong shortly after I made it as it was a pure bluff and I honestly could not see any made hand or non-hand folding, if for the only reason of keeping me honest.

As a little sidenote, I rarely post hands in which I take my default line of play. Believe it or not, the flop bet in hand 2 is not my default play /images/graemlins/crazy.gif although I'm thinking I should perhaps take the line more often.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
I really feel like I should've bet, but the quick, almost perfunctory way in which he checked smelled like a flush waiting to pop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I thinking checking in this spot should be standard. My guess is 50% of the time he will have a flush here and we need more than that to make this a value bet.

Hand 2 the pot is small, he is going to call very often here, check it down.

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

You need it to work nearly 1/3 of the time


[/ QUOTE ]

No you don't. There are 3.33 SB in the pot so you need it to work one time in 4.33, or 23% of the time. Add to this the fact that some of the times you are called you will hit on the turn, and you don't end up needing the opposition to fold all that often at all. You only fear the check-raise for those occasions
where you would have drawn to a winning hand on the turn but your opponent decides to check-raise the flop after you've shown no aggression whatsoever to date in the pot, which is a rare parlay and not something to get overly concerned about.

I think this is a +EV bet, certainly for the tables I play on Party. I can't tell you how many times I've flopped a nice hand like two pair or a set, bet the flop and had everybody fold. If they're folding when I'm loaded, they'll fold to a steal 20% of the time in a small pot, which is all I need.

Guy.