is it ever correct to fold low pocket pairs?

[papawawa]

Here's the situation:
You are UTG+1 w/22. The game is normal, with only a few seeing each flop. UTG open raises; you have no idea how many others will call his raise. Is it correct to fold here, or is that taboo?

[MEbenhoe]

FOLD FOLD FOLD I wouldnt even play this hand UTG+1 if UTG folded or called, the fact that he raised makes it even worse.

[PITTM]

you can probably safely fold here. having to call 3 or 4 bets with pocket 2s is not desirable.

rj

[Danenania]

That would be a really bad call. If you were on the button and there were already a few coldcallers in front of you then calling would be fine. You really don't want to end up heads-up against the UTG raiser with 22. That's not fun.

[papawawa]

I'm sorry I know this is fundamental, but could you guys give me some guidelines for pocket pairs in EP, I usually just stay in no matter what. Thanks.

[MEbenhoe]

Generally in EP I will raise AA, KK, QQ, and JJ and call with TT, 99, and 88. The JJ also sometimes fits into the calling hands rather than the raising hands, but most often is a raise. Any other pairs I'll throw away from EP. As far as playing UTG+1 with an UTG raise I would reraise with AA, KK, and QQ and call with JJ and TT. 99 and 88 become trouble hands at this point because you're caught between the fact that you might have the best hand at that point but may be in trouble if you dont flop a set. These are calls you have to make depending on how the game has been playing and what types of hands the UTG player would raise with UTG. There are times where reraising this player with JJ, TT, 99, and 88 would be the correct play. This is just my opinion on the subject. Others may have different ones. I say listen to them all and decide which one makes the most sense and go with that. I'm sure if you could get Sklansky or Malmuth in on this conversation they'd have a much better explanation than I would.

[MrFroggyX]

In limit: FOLD.
In No limit: CALL. (But it depends on how deep stacks we are playing and my opponents in that game)

[Danenania]

Buy Small Stakes Hold 'Em by Ed Miller. There is a section that answers your question in great detail.

[Michael Davis]

When facing a raise, you have to fold this hand. However, despite the advice, many limit games, especially if you are playing at a B&M casino, will be such that you can limp with any pair from any position.

-Michael

[shawn_p]

It's 7.5:1 to flop a set, there's 3.5sb in the pot and you have to call two cold. The pot odds aren't there to make this call at only 1.75:1. Even if you have the best hand now w/o improving every card is a scare card. I'd fold in this spot.

[x2ski]

Definite folding situation, even w/o a raise.

[Sundevils21]

[ QUOTE ]
FOLD FOLD FOLD I wouldnt even play this hand UTG+1 if UTG folded or called, the fact that he raised makes it even worse.


[/ QUOTE ]

if you play crazy low limit games, you give up a ton of money not calling in any position with a pp if it hasn't been raised.

[RicktheRuler]

I think with pocket pairs-low ones-you want to be in the pot for one bet with 5 or 6 callers. They also play okay heads up, but it isnt worth it to call from early position. If you dont flop a set it is usually a check fold situation.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FOLD FOLD FOLD I wouldnt even play this hand UTG+1 if UTG folded or called, the fact that he raised makes it even worse.


[/ QUOTE ]

if you play crazy low limit games, you give up a ton of money not calling in any position with a pp if it hasn't been raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

The low limit games I play in are nowhere near the type of game I'd have to be playing in to call from any position with any pocket pair, and I'm yet to see one that is. Doesn't mean they don't exist, I just haven't seen one.

[Sidekick]

FOLD those pocket dueces against that raise! You are a large underdog against ANY other pocket pair and you are only a coin flip against virtually any other hand. Do you really want to cold call a raise in this situation?

General guidelines for a normal micro-limit table is to play AA-77 from early position and fold anything smaller. Raise and re-raise AA-JJ in most situations.

From middle position you can safely play any pocket pair so long as there is no raise in front of you. If there is a raise in front then I just play AA-TT.

A person raising is basically telling you they have a solid hand. You don't want to be calling a solid hand with a drawing hand. Unless you know that the raiser is raising all the time with crap hands and limping with strong hands, just fold it and wait for the next hand. The next hand will be along soon enough.

Hope this helps.

[Sundevils21]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FOLD FOLD FOLD I wouldnt even play this hand UTG+1 if UTG folded or called, the fact that he raised makes it even worse.


[/ QUOTE ]

if you play crazy low limit games, you give up a ton of money not calling in any position with a pp if it hasn't been raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

The low limit games I play in are nowhere near the type of game I'd have to be playing in to call from any position with any pocket pair, and I'm yet to see one that is. Doesn't mean they don't exist, I just haven't seen one.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea, you're missing some good games. If you like low limit try party poker up to limits say, 5-10.
I don't believe you've never played in a game that loose. To make the play profitable all you need is 3-4 callers to get your implied odds. If you've never played in a game where 30-40% of the players see the flop then...ouch.

[Sidekick]

At least according to Ed Miller, David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth, you should have at least 6-8 callers in a typical small stakes hand to make calling with pocket pairs smaller than 77 correct from early position.

I'm not saying you are not correct, but... just giving a different viewpoint for the benefit of the original poster.

[Sundevils21]

[ QUOTE ]
At least according to Ed Miller, David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth, you should have at least 6-8 callers in a typical small stakes hand to make calling with pocket pairs smaller than 77 correct from early position.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can anybody confirm this? Am I the only one who has managed to make a huge profit with small pairs in EP? I doubt it. I remember D.S. saying there are lots of games in which folding any pp in ep would be a disaster.

[Danenania]

Not 6-8 callers, per say, 6-8 to the flop. Since most SB's will be pretty loose, you probably only need 3 limpers behind you for the particular hand to fit the loose games description in SSH. You'll have 6 to the flop.

[chio]

taboo?

[papawawa]

ta·boo also ta·bu ( P ) Pronunciation Key (t-b, t-)
n. pl. ta·boos, also ta·bus - A ban or an inhibition resulting from social custom or emotional aversion.

In others word NEVER DONE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At least according to Ed Miller, David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth, you should have at least 6-8 callers in a typical small stakes hand to make calling with pocket pairs smaller than 77 correct from early position.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can anybody confirm this? Am I the only one who has managed to make a huge profit with small pairs in EP? I doubt it. I remember D.S. saying there are lots of games in which folding any pp in ep would be a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

For small pairs to be a profitable play from EP you need to be playing in a loose passive game. The type of game where after calling in EP you can be pretty sure that there will be no raise after you and that you will have at least 3 or 4 more callers in after you to offset the approximately 88% of the time that the flop won't hit you and you will have to fold. Playing this hand with only 3 or 4 players in the pot like you say is definitely a long term loser. You may have experienced some short term luck with playing this type of hand from EP only expecting to have 3 or 4 in the pot, but I wouldn't expect this to last long term. And can you confirm this huge profit you've been making playing small pairs from EP, my thinking is its probably not as huge as you think it is.

[Sundevils21]

[ QUOTE ]
Playing this hand with only 3 or 4 players in the pot like you say is definitely a long term loser.

[/ QUOTE ]

With 4 players I would say without question its a long term winner(at least I can make it a winner). Im about an 8 to 1 dog to make my set. I can easily get 8x's my initial call back with 3-4 players.
Yea, it's not short term luck. Just trust me.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Playing this hand with only 3 or 4 players in the pot like you say is definitely a long term loser.

[/ QUOTE ]

With 4 players I would say without question its a long term winner(at least I can make it a winner). Im about an 8 to 1 dog to make my set. I can easily get 8x's my initial call back with 3-4 players.
Yea, it's not short term luck. Just trust me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well then you've found a better game than I have and I say drain it for everything you can. Simply my opinion that playing low pairs from EP is a losing play and everything I've read up to this point has backed that up.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Definite folding situation, even w/o a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the table is uber-passive, I'll call with 22 UTG+1

[Kopefire]

Depends on the table.

If you've been there for a while, and it's a really loose game with 5-8 people seeing the flop every hand, then I'll call two bets cold with a pocket pair. The implied odds based on previous table behavior makes this an ok call.

In a tighter game, I'm not going to do that.

In any case -- if you don't flop a set, be prepaired to fold anything under pocket 10's after the flop if you don't get the pot odds (not implied odds) to stay in.

[Sundevils21]

you need to reread your material. You're probably giving up too much. Its not that important I guess. You can still be a winning player without playing them.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi MEbenhoe:

First, you don't need six to eight players. What you need is the ability to collect enough bets given that you make a set and win the pot. Sometimes this can be done with just a couple of players if you can be sure that they will automatically put a lot of money in the pot from the flop on.

Small pairs can certainly be profitable in a loose aggressive game from early position. The problem occurs when the game gets very aggressive and all the raises begin to reduce the number of players who see the flop and they also cut into your implied odds.

Best wishes,
Mason