pop quiz on air national guard and fast boats...

[eLROY]

Who had a greater expectation of seeing combat,

1) John Kerry when he volunteered to drive a PCF patrol to be like President Kennedy, or

2) George W. Bush, when he joined the Air National Guard to be like the first President Bush?

Hint: Which pieces of equipment, and from which service, were actually being used to fight the war at the time each entered the service?

[lu_hawk]

You should have done some research before you posted this. Your chances of being sent to Vietnam as a Guardsman were very low, it wasn't like it is today where lots of Guardsman have been deployed to Iraq. It was known that if you got into the Guard you were unlikely to go to Vietnam. You could go on google and find actual numbers, like the % of guardsman who were sent to vietnam, in order to confirm this. But my suspicion is you wouldn't care about real numbers and facts.

So I would say Kerry's expectations were probably about 100x higher though I could be exaggerating slightly.

[nothumb]

I thought Kennedy was a pilot? I'm just asking, I might be wrong.

Kerry did say that he volunteered for the armed services so he could go to Vietnam. Are you saying that he signed up, saying he was going to Vietnam but secretly hoping he would just end up patrolling the Gulf Stream, so he could use his military record to pad his resume as a politician? Man, this guy is worse than Clinton.

NT

[West]

I found this:

"As Bush has been quick to note, National Guard members do face the chance of being called up for active duty, though few actually did during the Vietnam war. So what a lucky break for Bush that he was assigned to fly the F-102 Delta Dagger, a plane already being phased out. In fact, the Air Force had ordered all overseas F-102 units shut down as of June 30, 1970 -- just 3 months after Bush finished his training. Since training is so airplane specific, Bush was guaranteed from the beginning to be safe from combat.

Bush's campaign has even used his training on the obsolete plane to justify his early discharge, almost a year before his scheduled discharge, since other F-102 pilots were also being released early. But they can't answer the obvious question -- why spend so much money to train a National Guardsman for 2 years on a plane that was already being phased out, at a time when the Guard was letting F102 pilots leave early due to oversupply?"

but also this:

"III. Governor Bush declared that he would have continued flying but they phased out his airplane, the F-102.

This is not true! The F-102 continued in service at Ellington Air Force Base until September 1974, after the time that Bush would have completed his full 6 year commitment. In fact, a second plane, the F-101, did not displace the F-102, but was added to the inventory of his unit. This allowed the unit to establish a second Combat Crew Training School to train F-101 air crews alongside F-102 crews.

Indeed his unit actually was placed in an alert status in 1972, meaning that more pilots were needed as of November 1972 just at the time Governor Bush should have taken his physical."


and this...

By Adam Entous
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Some of President Bush's missing Air National Guard records during the Vietnam War years, previously said to be destroyed, turned up on Friday but offered no new evidence to dispel charges by Democrats that he was absent without leave.

His whereabouts during his service as a pilot in the Texas Air National Guard in the United States during the Vietnam War have become an election-year issue. Bush's Democratic presidential challenger, John Kerry, is a decorated Vietnam War veteran.

The Pentagon, which had announced two weeks ago that the payroll records had been accidentally destroyed, blamed a clerical error for previous failure to find them.

In May 1972, Bush moved to Alabama to work on a political campaign and, he has said, to perform his Guard service there for a year. But other Guard officers have said they have no recollection of ever seeing him there.

Bush was the son of a U.S. congressman at a time when National Guard service was seen as a way for the privileged to avoid being drafted for Vietnam War duty.

Questions over his record resurfaced this year as Bush sought, in the midst of the Iraq war, to cast himself as a "war president" in his drive to win reelection on Nov. 2.

The documents released on Friday by the Pentagon included two faded computerized payroll sheets showing Bush was not paid during the latter part of 1972 and offer no evidence to place Bush in Alabama during the latter part of 1972.

Still, White House spokesman Trent Duffy said: "They show the president served in the military and completed his service, which is why he received an honorable discharge."

[Utah]

And this is important because......

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought Kennedy was a pilot? I'm just asking, I might be wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

The real JFK was in the Navy, and was the skipper of a PT boat. The PT (Patrol Torpedo) boats were small, hit and run craft, very similar in size and operational style to the Swift boats. There are those who suggest that Kerry, believing himself the second coming of his idol Kennedy, went into Swift boats because of the similarity to PT boat operations, and because of the potential for conspicuous service that would greatly help his political career.

[andyfox]

Assuming this is true, that he went into the service to further his future career, why would he come back and accuse his country of war crimes? Those who know me here know I'm among the most cynical when it comes to politicians and their motives, but the one action (enlisting to build a reputation) and the other (then chastizing his country as criminal) don't seem to jive.

[eLROY]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming this is true, that he went into the service to further his future career, why would he come back and accuse his country of war crimes?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's easy, Kerry gave up on Plan A when they demoted him and sent him into danger. So he finagled his way out of there before he had enough military service to run on, but when he had enough stories to run against, and also to have an excuse or moral alibi for fleeing!

After Kerry's request for deferment was turned down, he saw a good situation in what were, at the time, fairly safe offshore patrol missions. Kerry's father, like Bush's, was a pilot. But Kerry, who first ran for Congress in 1970, saw a convenient opportunity to pretend to be JFK if he could get a job as a boat captain. Shortly after he began his cushy mission, they unexpectedly moved the swift boats closer to combat, where Kerry was only qualified to crew. With people suddenly shooting at him, of course Kerry frantically started filing injury reports to get himself out of there, and was gone after only four months. At this point he could not run for Congress on his Vietnam service, since he didn't really have any and everybody knew it. So if you can't join them, attack them! He needed a reason why he wasn't a great soldier, and the reason was that unlike JFK, Vietnam soldiers were evil!

George W. Bush trained for what were expected to be very dangerous missions; guard airmen were right in it every day at the time he enlisted. And, three years younger than Kerry, Bush also enlisted at a younger age than Kerry. But owing to the calculated confidence-sapping efforts of subversives and political opportunists like John Kerry, the war wound down before any of Bush's alerts could ever result in him shipping out.

Kerry joined the Navy, but got scared out of there awfully quickly when his JFK fantasy plan didn't come to fruition. At that point what else could he say, other than that the people still there were evil? It wasn't his original plan, but he really had no choice. The Swift Vets were there to prevent him running on his service then, even more than now.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
the one action (enlisting to build a reputation) and the other (then chastizing his country as criminal) don't seem to jive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bow to no man when it comes to cynicism. I think that Kerry is cold and calculating, and has been running for president since high school. Unlike W., who is a slacker and a classic underachiever who fell into it late in life.

I see nothing contradictory about Kerry's military career and his anti-war stance. The military service, even to the point of his JFKesque job as a boat skipper, was a case of getting a major ticket punched. Up until Vietnam, military service was a huge plus for a candidate. There are reports that he talked about running for president when he was in Vietnam.

On return from Vietnam, Kerry correctly read the political winds, and saw that the country, particularly his own generation, was turning strongly against the war. He may or may not have become anti-war as a result of his own experiences, but that does not matter. He saw which way the crowd was going, and jumped out in front of it. His motives at the time may have been honorable. His actions were pure politics, from the John-Wayne-like home movies in Nam to the posturing for the cameras at demonstrations. Being anti-war was very politically correct for the next generation of leaders at the time, and a good spring board for a political career.

[West]

[ QUOTE ]
At this point he could not run for Congress on his Vietnam service, since he didn't really have any and everybody knew it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regardless of what you think of Kerry, you think maybe it's a tad unfair to say that someone who went to Vietnam and was shot at "didn't really have any" [Vietnam service]?

I confess, I haven't done too much reading up on Kerry's Vietnam background, because frankly, I know there ain't no way it's going to affect my vote come November. Yes, Bush is so low, I would vote for just about anyone against him.

Nevertheless, what you've written seems like incredible spin - do you work for the Bush campaign?

[ QUOTE ]
George W. Bush trained for what were expected to be very dangerous missions; guard airmen were right in it every day at the time he enlisted. And, three years younger than Kerry, Bush also enlisted at a younger age than Kerry. But owing to the calculated confidence-sapping efforts of subversives and political opportunists like John Kerry, the war wound down before any of Bush's alerts could ever result in him shipping out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have on the other hand, read plenty about Bush's background, and you'll never convince me that this paragraph is anything but complete horseshit.

[Rooster71]

[ QUOTE ]
George W. Bush trained for what were expected to be very dangerous missions; guard airmen were right in it every day at the time he enlisted.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yea right. George wanted so badly to fight and defend his country. Please tell us some more fairy tales.

[andyfox]

Being anti-war was never politically correct. George McGovern, despite having been a fighter pilot, got shellacked by Richard Nixon because of his anti-war stance.

I recently watched the Dick Cavett debate between O'Neill and Kerry from 1971, which was rebroadcast last week. There's no way what Kerry was saying there would have been politically savvy. It would be one thing to be against the war; to call the was a criminal act was quite another.

[andyfox]

I don't think anybody could even have imagined that calling the war criminal was a way to political success. All of the acceptable opposition to the war in those days was not principled: it was because the war was being lost, or unwinnable, or a mistake, not because it was evil or unlawful or criminal. To accuse the government of being criminal was for Chomsky and Stone and Falk and others similarly excluded from polite discussion.

In the Cavett debate (1971), O'Neill is obviously peeved by the fact that Kerry is accusing the war effort of being a criminal activity; O'Neill was apparently a front man for the Nixon administration.

Interesting, anyway, that Vietnam still remains such a troubling memory for many Americans. For many on the right, the opposition to the war was seen as the cause for us losing and they will never forgive those they see as the culprits. For others on the left, it showed that our government could do evil things and lie about it without batting an eye.

[Taxman]

This cycle of self delusion is astounding

[Taxman]

I love how all of a sudden, Kerry has become a cold calculating criminal mastermind who knew he would be running for president since he was five years old. If one angle doesn't work, they just go for another one. Personally, I don't think Kerry is nearly smart enough to have engineered a 30 year presidential campaign. He's no Bill Clinton after all.

[elwoodblues]

As an aside, this is the same type of argument that got OJ off. The LA police are the biggest bunch of buffoons on the face of the earth. Not only that, but they almost pulled off the most complicated/calculated frame-up ever devised.

Kerry entered military service because he felt that admirable/brave/patriotic service was the way to become president. He then came back and was the most unpatriotic person imaginable (aiding and abetting, yadda yadda yadda) because that would get him the spotlight that he would someday use to become president.