QQ - Correct play?

[nothumb]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 <font color="purple">(TAG)</font> calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 <font color="purple">(Uberpassive)</font> calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 <font color="purple">(TAG)</font> calls, MP2 <font color="purple">(Uberpassive)</font> calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, TAG checks, Uberpassive checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">TAG raises</font>, Uberpassive calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8.16 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">TAG bets</font>, Uberpassive calls, Hero ???

TAG here is capable of check-raising and leading a draw if he has enough callers, but he's not super tricky. Solid player as far as I can tell.

Uberpassive is quite loose. No read on BB.

NT

[xerostar]

I say call at the turn, and then the river, if no scary card comes. If you think TAG is drawing, you have a good chance of winning, especially since he called pf, you probably have to put him on either a drawing hand or KJo/s (or 7s). He COULD have KQ, in which case he is betting for info on the flop to see if you have AK.

The bottom line is that if the Uberpassive calls, you have a good chance of getting paid double, as opposed to going heads up with TAG. Therefore, the passive player should keep you in the pot.

[Michael Davis]

He's not leading into three players on the turn with a draw. You lose. Fold. Next hand.

-Michael

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
He's not leading into three players on the turn with a draw. You lose. Fold. Next hand.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, Mike, if UTG+1 is really a TAG, on what range of hands do you put him with which he would openlimp preflop, and then checkraise that flop, which smells like an attempted protection move?

[Michael Davis]

I don't smell the attempted protection move here if the guy is solid. He's checkraising another (we'll assume) solid preflop raiser and should be fearful of being threebet. There's already one caller in between, so he's not pushing people out with this checkraise. Regardless, if he is protecting a hand, what is he protecting? A king.

We also have uberpassive who has called two cold on the flop and a bet on the turn. There is some chance he has a K.

The OP did say this player was capable of leading with a draw if he had "enough callers," so maybe, but if you want the hands he could have I suggest KQ, KJ-K9s, or 77. This guy is described as a solid player and he's betting into one player who called two cold, a solid preflop raiser, and another opponent from the blinds. He can beat QQ.

-Michael

[nothumb]

Chess,

This was my read as well. I put him on either a weak king, AJ, or a flush/straight draw. When he led the turn, I leaned towards a king. However, is it out of line to bet a flush draw - or a combo draw - into 3 players for value when you would call a bet and don't expect a raise? I would probably lead with a hand like QT of clubs here.

The callers swayed me towards folding, which I did. I did not think it was a hard decision but thought it might be interesting to post.

NT

[Richard Berg]

Hero is probably behind, but it is wrong to suggest that a moderately tricky player couldn't play QT/A7 /images/graemlins/club.gif that way. Hell, it might even be the correct way to pump a big draw, since the only player you're forcing to call 2 cold on the flop is the calling station. Add in the fact that many TAGs view King hands as raise-or-fold preflop and you shrink his range of holdings further. You could be facing a bad situation from 77, but uberpassive will pad the times you're ahead.

Frankly, I'd be more worried about uberpassive calling all the way down with Kx. If he and BB are not complete morons, I lay it down.

[xerostar]

I don't see how a solid player calling with AK preflop in small stakes.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't smell the attempted protection move here if the guy is solid. He's checkraising another (we'll assume) solid preflop raiser and should be fearful of being threebet. There's already one caller in between, so he's not pushing people out with this checkraise. Regardless, if he is protecting a hand, what is he protecting? A king.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think TAG could easily be protecting a J, with a hand like JTs/QJs.



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We also have uberpassive who has called two cold on the flop and a bet on the turn. There is some chance he has a K.

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If uberpassive is as loose-passive (re: "fishy") as nothumb claims, then TAG, like nothumb, realizes that this guy can have pretty much anything.



[ QUOTE ]
The OP did say this player was capable of leading with a draw if he had "enough callers," so maybe, but if you want the hands he could have I suggest KQ, KJ-K9s, or 77.

[/ QUOTE ].

The only hand you've mentioned that seems likely is KTs. Most TAGs would openraise from UTG+1 with KQo in a nine-handed game. K9s would seem to be a likely fold preflop. And don't you think most TAGs would bet out on that flop with a monster like 77 or KJ, and salivate at the chance for Hero to raise if Hero has AK/KQ/AA?



[ QUOTE ]
He can beat QQ.

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I wouldn't bet on it. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[xerostar]

I agree with chesspain /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[nothumb]

Ok, some summary and the results.

I generally agree with the posts that say the combined likelihood of TAG having a draw or a combo hand, trying to protect a K, and the loose callers having a K makes this a fold. I thought TAG could have limped with a weaker suited K like KTs, or he could even have check-raised KJ trying to get money in on a coordinated board while he's got the best of it. I also thought he could have Ax of clubs, QT of clubs or something similar. The likelihood that he (or one of the callers) had one or both of my Q outs made me even less inclined to call.

I had seen uberpassive calling all the way with TPTK and better. I'd also seen him calling with total ass. His calling along with the button calling made me leery of a weak king, or losing to 2 pair on the river. In short, I thought I might have no outs if I was behind and I felt I was likely behind. In the unlikely event I wasn't behind, I estimate that between one third and one half of the deck beat me on the river.

I folded. The others called. River was an offsuit ten and TAG came in third with KQo (??). UberPassive had AQ and the BB had AK. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

So is this results-oriented weak-tight thinking or was I right? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

NT

[chesspain]

I think the so-called TAG played like crap, at least on the cheap steets.

[nothumb]

Agreed. But there is really no other way to describe him - he was selective with the hands he played and he was always aggressive when he entered the pot. Prior to this hand he had given me no indication that he would screw up so badly here. So it didn't seem fair to say, "Well, until this hand I thought TAG was solid."

Anyway, I thought a K with a decent kicker was within his range of hands here. Some TAGs play tight and aggressive but not tight or aggressive enough, or misuse aggression, etc. The fact that it was offsuit surprised me but the fact that he had a K did not. By the turn I was leaning towards it, hence the fold.

NT