should i fold? should I check thru?

[jt1]

hand 1 - PP $3/6 no reads. a common situation with Jacks, I think. I'm in MP1 with J /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I open raise. MP3 calls. CO re-raises. I cap. All call


(12 sb)10 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet. MP3 folds. CO raises.

can i fold here? Unless he's a LAG, which I haven't noticed so far, he must have a higher pair or a set of 10's. I did the usual thing and called down, but every time this situation comes up (and it is always with Jacks) I think this is a safe fold, but I always call down anyway. BTW, does anyone just call the pre-flop re-raise? HU, I always just call against a non-LAG, but with at least one other player I cap.

Hand 2 PP $3/6 another fairly common situation. I am in MP1 with QJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

2 limpers. I limp. SB completes. BB checks.

(5 sb) Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

BB bets. folded to me. I raise. SB calls. BB calls.

(5 bb) 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

checked to me. I bet. All call.

(8 bb) 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

checked to me. I bet. SB raises. BB folds. I call.

This was a clear check thru, no? There are two players in the game, a flop draw pairs, and a possible flush draw from the flop hits.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
There are two players in the game, a flop draw pairs,

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant a flop card pairs.

[Fnord]

Hand 1: I call the pre-flop 3-bet and if I flop an overpair I'm check-raising to get rid of MP3 and calling down to a 3-bet, but otherwise leading the Turn. You're not far ahead of any legit range of 3-bet hands and MP3 isn't going anywhere pre-flop. Granted I suck at this game and my Jacks are losing money. Anyone got a better line?

Hand 2: With both the flush and the 8 getting there maybe this is a check-through. I used to check through here, then I bet it, now I'm rethinking.

[Noodles]

interesting hand,i hate these situations too and as you say without a read i usually call down to the riv,suspecting all the way that i am beat,unless the guy has AK /images/graemlins/club.gif ,someone might reraise with that, most of the time you are beat here,but it is so hard to fold against just one player with JJ,
I would like to see what the more experienced posters think here

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
my Jacks are losing money.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your sample size? For example I have 94 hands with eights and 79 with nines. I'm winning a third of a big bet each hand with nines and a whole big bet with eights. Furthermore, with eights and Jacks where my sample size is exactly the same, I'm winning the same amount of money from each.

just food for thought

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
What's your sample size?

[/ QUOTE ]

11k hands in PT. 45 Jacks. It's too small to make conclusions, although I suspect I overplay the hand.

[Fnord]

Some gems...

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Fnord is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">Fnord raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Fnord checks, BB folds, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Fnord raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (6 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Fnord bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Fnord calls.

River: (10 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Fnord checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Fnord folds.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Fnord is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Fnord raises</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Fnord bets</font>, CO folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Fnord calls.

River: (6.66 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 8.66 BB

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Fnord is CO with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="CC3333">Fnord raises</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Fnord bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Fnord bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, Fnord calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
11k hands in PT. 45 Jacks. It's too small to make conclusions, although I suspect I overplay the hand.



[/ QUOTE ]

It's a difficult hand to overplay. It being the 4th or 5th best starting hand in hold 'em. The only way it can be overplayed is if you cap with it after someone already 3-bet it. In that situation, you should just muck. On the flop, it can be overplayed by raising or even betting into a preflop 3-bettor when you have an overpair. Or the most common reason why one would be loosing money is giving up on it just because an overcard hits. But all this is really just me swimming in by own BS. The sample size is probably too small.

[jt1]

I don't think you are doing anything fundamentally wrong. I prefer betting out in hand one, but alot of pros advise check raising. I would definitely advise raising the turn in hand two, but you only loose a fraction of a big bet each time you call down. In hand 3, a smaller pair is just as likely as a King. That's how I see 'em.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer betting out in hand one

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to check and see what the action is. If it's a bet + raise in front I fold right there. When the last player to act bets I think my Jacks might be good, so I try to take over the hand.