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adios
08-20-2004, 06:34 PM
Supposedly there's a 7 week wait for the book when buying it from Amazon. The book is a best seller. Little chance of this happening. I love the Kerry devotion to free speech and before we go down the defamtion path baloney again one of the co-authors is a lawyer. It doesn't make him immune from being successfully sued for defaming Kerry but it lowers the odds a great deal. LA Times, NY Times have come out with stories today basically trashing the book as did the Washington Post. Dick Morris, a former Clinton advisor, stated that the Democrats were probably rounding up their friendly press members to dig up all the dirt they could on the book. All the press well simply perk people's interest as it already has. The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth spokesman said they don't care if it impacts Bush's re-election chance negatively. I love this from the article:

But there is a long-standing tradition by reputable publishers of withdrawing titles that prove to be hoaxes or frauds.

H I L A R I O U S

Unfit for bookstores (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/08/19/swiftbook/index_np.html)

Unfit for bookstores
The Kerry campaign calls on a conservative publisher to withdraw book after the Washington Post torpedoes the veracity of a Swift boat veteran.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Eric Boehlert



Aug. 19, 2004 | The Kerry campaign has told Salon that the publisher of "Unfit for Command," the book that is at the center of the attack on Kerry's military record by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, is retailing a hoax and should consider withdrawing it from bookstores. "No publisher should want to be selling books with proven falsehoods in them, especially falsehoods that are meant to smear the military service of an American veteran," said Kerry campaign spokesman Chad Clanton. "If I were them, I'd be ducking under my desk wondering what to do. This is a serious problem."

Even some uncomfortable Republicans might breathe a sigh a relief if "Unfit for Command" were to vanish from bookstores: "I don't think the Swift Boat Veterans are helping the Republican cause," Rep. Christopher Shays, R-Conn., remarked on CNN Thursday.


Yanking the title may seem unlikely given the fact that Regnery Publishing, the conservative shop that is home to fire-breathing right-wing partisans like Ann Coulter and David Limbaugh, is behind the book. Thanks to the big-spending campaign of the Republican veterans group, which is bankrolled by major Bush contributors, the book has already hit bestseller lists and is sure to turn a big profit.

But there is a long-standing tradition by reputable publishers of withdrawing titles that prove to be hoaxes or frauds. Just last month Random House's Australian unit was forced to pull an international bestseller after it was determined to be a fabrication. The book, "Forbidden Love," allegedly detailed the death of a Jordanian woman, murdered by her Muslim father after he discovered she was seeing a Christian man. After questions were raised, an internal investigation by Random House concluded the book was a fraud.

"Unfit for Command" and the veterans group behind it are facing similar questions Thursday after the Washington Post torpedoed the veracity of one of its key members. Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has insisted Kerry lied about the circumstances surrounding his Bronze Star award, claiming Kerry's boat never came under enemy fire on March 13, 1969, the day an injured Kerry leaned overboard to scoop wounded Green Beret Larry Rassmann out of the river. But contrary to Thurlow's claim, the Washington Post has reported today that according to his own military files, which recorded the events of March 13, 1969, "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" were directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla, including Kerry's.

Earlier, Retired Adm. Roy Hoffmann, chairman and co-founder of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, flip-flopped on a key element of his Kerry story. In May, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported, "Hoffmann acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally." But with the pending publication of "Unfit for Command," Hoffmann changed his story, insisting he "knew [Kerry] well."

Hoffmann wasn't alone in reversing his story on the Kerry attack. In 1968, Grant Hibbard, a lieutenant commander in Vietnam during Kerry's tour, described Kerry favorably: "One of the top few in his willingness to seek and accept responsibility." But now he claims Kerry lied about his service. Another vocal Kerry critic, Capt. George Elliot, who served in Vietnam at the same time Kerry did, praised Kerry both in a 1968 evaluation ("In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action, Lieutenant Junior Grade Kerry was unsurpassed") and as recently as 1996 when Elliot publicly praised Kerry for charging after the enemy.

A Regnery Publishing spokesperson did not return a call seeking comment about the factual cloud over "Unfit for Command." But if Regnery doesn't withdraw the book, perhaps bookstore retailers will at least consider moving the title over to the fiction section.

sam h
08-20-2004, 07:11 PM
All sorts of crazy crap gets published in this country, and very little of it is found libelous, so I doubt Kerry has any case. Just a PR move.

But the fact that this book, which seems like such an obvious smear and is written by a total nutjob, is a best seller is pretty distressing. Just goes to show again that on either side, left and right, there are millions of people who so desperately want to affirm the righteousness of their cause that they will believe anything.

cardcounter0
08-20-2004, 07:14 PM
Actually, the book was written by two certified total nut jobs, not just one.

adios
08-20-2004, 07:33 PM
Sam I respect what you have to say but this is about payback as it's between Kerry and these Vets. The Vets are sore about Kerry's book that basically insuated that the people Kerry served were war criminals. Previous to Kerry's book a few endorese Kerry in 1996. Many of these Vets were officers and won medals themselves. A few were prisoners of war for a long time. Now for the press to portray these guys as no good bums as stooges for the Republican party is unbelieveable. It's like the press is implying that the Republicans pulled a bunch of homeless Viet Nam vets off the street and are drumming up the accusations.

sam h
08-20-2004, 08:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It's like the press is implying that the Republicans pulled a bunch of homeless Viet Nam vets off the street and are drumming up the accusations.

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I've seen and read about this Corsi guy, I think I would give a lot more weight to some homeless guy off the street than him.

I think you are right that many veterans are ultimately angry with Kerry because he cast the net fairly wide in making allegations of war crimes. I can't say either way, since I haven't read his book. What I do feel strongly about, however, is that in general the public underestimates the extent of the war crimes - and how high up the responsibility for them should go.

cardcounter0
08-20-2004, 08:43 PM
"These assertions are garbage, these people weren't there with John Kerry. We were. If John Kerry hadn't made the right command decisions, in my opinion, we would be some of the names on that wall."
--PCF 94 crewmate of Kerry's, Gene Thorson

Zeno
08-21-2004, 02:11 AM
From the Article:

[ QUOTE ]
"No publisher should want to be selling books with proven falsehoods in them, especially falsehoods that are meant to smear the military service of an American veteran," said Kerry campaign spokesman Chad Clanton. "If I were them, I'd be ducking under my desk wondering what to do. This is a serious problem."


[/ QUOTE ]

I assume, with a fair degree of certainty, that Chad Clinton said this with a straight face and in all earnestness.

I rate this statement up there with some of the whoppers Baghdad Bob spooned out for the Press during the taking of Baghdad.

Four big gold stars for Chad. He’s the man.

-Zeno

adios
08-21-2004, 03:30 AM
Kerry filed a complaint with the FEC yesterday that IMO has little chance of removing the ads from TV. Also Kerry put an ad on TV getting an endorsement from an ex Joint Chiefs Air Force general. Now the Democrats are using those with a military background to give advice to civillians on how to vote. Wasn't this the party that has continually warned about the dangers of the power of the military-industrial complex? Anyway here's a Washington Post article about some members of the Swift Boat Veterans.

Some Veterans Still Bitter at Talk of Crimes (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20242-2004Aug20.html)

Some Veterans Still Bitter at Talk of Crimes
Senator's Activism Made A Lasting Impression

By Josh White and Brian Faler
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, August 21, 2004; Page A01

William Ferris was confined to a bed in a military hospital, his severed sciatic nerve reminding him of the attack on his Navy Swift boat in a Vietnamese river. A shot from a recoilless rifle had pierced the boat's pilothouse and then Ferris's body, leaving him in constant agony.

But it was what appeared on Ferris's television that really pained him. John F. Kerry, a decorated fellow Swift boat driver, was testifying before Congress about atrocities in Vietnam, throwing his medals away, speaking at antiwar rallies. Ferris, who was trying to rehabilitate himself back to active duty, felt betrayed.

"I was livid," Ferris, 57, of Long Island, N.Y., said yesterday, recalling how his dislike for the presidential candidate began in the early 1970s. "I said to myself at the time, this is someone who is using his experience for his own purposes, and this was long before he ever ran for office. I thought he was using, actually manipulating, what he had done in Vietnam. Just like he's doing now."

Ferris is one of 250 Swift boat veterans who in May signed an open letter to the Massachusetts senator asking for full disclosure of his military records, specifically focusing on events during a four-month tour in Vietnam for which Kerry was awarded medals for bravery in combat. The veterans group -- Swift Boat Veterans for Truth -- has criticized Kerry for using his military experience as a centerpiece of his presidential campaign, arguing that the Democrat has exaggerated his experiences at war for political gain.

"I thought he was just another hot dog just trying to build his reputation," said Wayland Holloway of Searcy, Ark., who says he crossed paths with Kerry in 1969, one day before the future presidential candidate pulled Jim Rassmann from a river. "The first time I met John Kerry, frankly, I thought he was a very disingenuous person."

But while the group appears to be rooted in Republican politics and big money, several veterans who signed the letter said in interviews yesterday that they are casually into politics and generally are not convinced that Kerry is lying, but they do not like the candidate because of his polarizing speeches in the 1970s.

James Zumwalt, who attended the group's first news conference in May, said he joined the group solely to set the record straight about the allegations of war crimes included in "Tour of Duty," a Douglas Brinkley book about Kerry's Vietnam service. Now, Zumwalt says, "I kind of have mixed feelings" about the tone of the group's attacks. "I would not try to question the awards given to him or his service."

Many of the veterans, scattered across the country, learned about the anti-Kerry group through friends, at reunions for Swift boat vets or on the Internet, and most have limited their involvement to signing the single letter to Kerry. Some say they voted for Al Gore in the last election but are still deeply hurt by what Kerry did when he returned from battle.

Kenneth Knipple of Erie, Mich., who served three years in Vietnam, backed Gore in 2000 but joined the anti-Kerry movement after leaning about it from a fellow vet. "For him to be wounded that many times and lie as many times as he did, I don't want him to be president," said Knipple, who served on Swift boats, but never with Kerry.

"I wasn't there at the time that happened," said Tony Gisclair, a veteran from Poplarville, Miss., who signed the letter, referring to Kerry's combat in Vietnam. "But look at what the man said about us when he came back."

Tony Snesko, a veteran in Washington, D.C., said he was "devastated" by Kerry's antiwar efforts, prompting him to sign on to the group's anti-Kerry message.

Snesko said to see Kerry elected would give credence to the senator's claims that those who fought in Vietnam were reckless baby-killers: "At the point that he might possibly take over this country as president -- it would validate everything that he said about us and would make it appear true."

The effort has gained momentum in the past month, as the veterans group began airing a controversial television commercial questioning Kerry's version of his service and asking him to disclose his military records. The Kerry camp has been attacking Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, calling it a front for President Bush's reelection efforts.

The May 4 letter arose out of a broader effort coordinated by a longtime Kerry foe and Republican supporter, Texas lawyer John E. O'Neill, also a Swift boat veteran. At the behest of the Nixon White House in 1971, O'Neill debated Kerry on television about the war.

O'Neill, who co-wrote "Unfit for Command," an anti-Kerry book published this week, gathered other Swift boat veterans to start the group and allowed word to spread. The group's core membership -- which has met three times and has had several conference calls -- includes a seven-member steering committee and about 10 other members.

"We really got this thing going in the hopes the Democratic Party would listen to us and perhaps nominate someone else," said Bill Lannom of Grinnell, Iowa, whom O'Neill recruited onto the steering committee. Lannom bristles at the thought of Kerry being elected to the presidency. "He's lying, and he's betraying us," Lannom said. "He's telling untruths about us and his character. He's talking about atrocities that didn't happen. And then he's using that same experience to promote himself. He can't have it both ways."

Unlike casual participants, the most committed members say they are driven by desire to expose Kerry as a fraud who doctored his record to win medals and an early release from Vietnam. But they are a minority in the larger group.

John L. Kipp of Brown County, Ind., said he learned about the letter to Kerry while surfing the Web and added his signature because he does not believe that Kerry is telling the whole truth. Kipp, who commanded a Swift boat in Vietnam, doubts that Kerry would have left his boat to attack an enemy, as he has asserted. "It really bothered me when he started to ballyhoo his war record," said Kipp, 62. "You don't turn on your comrades and say these terrible, awful things that I know I had never seen. There's something about keeping faith with those you served with."

Don Hammer, a veteran from Bloomington, Ill., said he admires Kerry. Hammer also said he believes Kerry was within his rights to speak out against the war. But still, Hammer has questions. "My goal is to tell Mr. Kerry to open up his service record," he said. "I don't know what happened. Nobody else knows what happened."

Staff writer Jim VandeHei and research editor Margot Williams contributed to this report.

cardcounter0
08-21-2004, 08:58 AM
"Wasn't this the party that has continually warned about the dangers of the power of the military-industrial complex?"

No, that was General and President Dwight G. Eisenhower (True Republican).

Rooster71
08-23-2004, 01:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Sam I respect what you have to say but this is about payback as it's between Kerry and these Vets. The Vets are sore about Kerry's book that basically insuated that the people Kerry served were war criminals. Previous to Kerry's book a few endorese Kerry in 1996. Many of these Vets were officers and won medals themselves. A few were prisoners of war for a long time. Now for the press to portray these guys as no good bums as stooges for the Republican party is unbelieveable. It's like the press is implying that the Republicans pulled a bunch of homeless Viet Nam vets off the street and are drumming up the accusations.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a stretch. However, some of these individuals have had an ax to grind with Kerry since the time they were rounded up by the Nixon folks to discredit Kerry when he testified in front of congress in the early 70's.

adios
08-23-2004, 02:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
That's a stretch.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's a stretch?

The Vets are sore about Kerry's book that basically insuated that the people Kerry served were war criminals.

A friendly book review of, Tour of Duty from which Kerry's congressional testimony is cited:

Kerry volunteered this straightforward testimony: "I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others in that I shot in free fire zones, used harassment and interdiction fire, joined in search and destroy missions, and burned villages. All of these acts were established policies from the top down, and the men who ordered this are war criminals."


A skillful chronicle of Kerry's conflicts (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2004/01/19/a_skillful_chronicle_of_kerrys_conflicts/)

Previous to Kerry's book a few endorese Kerry in 1996.

This is certainly not a stretch.

Many of these Vets were officers and won medals themselves.

This is not a stretch.

A few were prisoners of war for a long time.

This is not a stretch.

Now for the press to portray these guys as no good bums as stooges for the Republican party is unbelieveable.

This isn't only the press it's the Kerry campaign itself! If Kerry says the Swift Vets are nothing more than a Republican front group smearing him how can the Swift Vets be honorable at the same time?

It's like the press is implying that the Republicans pulled a bunch of homeless Viet Nam vets off the street and are drumming up the accusations.

Ok my interpretation but look at the reporting of this. Where has the press indicated that these people served just like Kerry and some won medals and have a right to be heard. Why hasn't anyone from the press asked Kerry or Edwards why they enlisted lawyers to send letters to TV stations airing the ads threatening them with lawsuits. Why has none from the press asked Kerry why he's demanded that the publisher not publish their book?


[ QUOTE ]
However, some of these individuals have had an ax to grind with Kerry since the time they were rounded up by the Nixon folks to discredit Kerry when he testified in front of congress in the early 70's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which ones?

Rooster71, I'm sure you'll join me in condemning the Kerry campaign for their attempts to suppress the free speech rights of Viet Nam vets, many of them decorated on the battlefield. I'm sure you'll also join me in condmning the Kerry campaign for their attempts to get the book that lays out these Vets cases banned from circulation.