Short Stacked. Did I have a choice?

[OrangeBaller]

Down to $500. MP with blinds at 200/400. Went all-in with Ac9d. Big Blind busted me with pocket Aces. Did I make the right choice or should I have waited? Thanks for the help guys.

[aLOWdAkING]

IMO, it was a good place to go all in. You only had a few more rounds before losing it all to the blinds and A9 is a decent hand with that stack you have.

[Martin Aigner]

A9o is definetly no hand which plays well 3 handed, which is what most of the time will happen to you (stacksizes of the blinds would help though). Although I raise very frequently when 4 handed, in this situatioin I´d rather wait and call in the BB with anything, since most of the time you´ll be heads up then against a random hand.

Best regards

Martin Aigner

[Martin Aigner]

OOps, sorry, don´t know why I thought it was 4handed. Anyway, doesn´t make a big difference. It rather makes me not wanting to raise even more.

[lastchance]

You've got less than 2x BB... I really don't see how you can not push with any ace with less than 2x BB.

Of course, if other people are as shortstacked as you were..., or I misread your stack size...

[adanthar]

You fold A9o 4 handed? That's *horribly* weak tight.

[Lori]

Other than some constructed special cases, I go all in here nearly every time.

Lori

[LinusKS]

[ QUOTE ]
A9o is definetly no hand which plays well 3 handed, which is what most of the time will happen to you (stacksizes of the blinds would help though). Although I raise very frequently when 4 handed, in this situatioin I´d rather wait and call in the BB with anything, since most of the time you´ll be heads up then against a random hand.

Best regards

Martin Aigner

[/ QUOTE ]

How are the other hands any more or less random now than they would be if you waited for the big blind?

It seems to me the only difference is YOU'LL be the one with the random hand. A9 is better than the hand you'll likely have then.

[MikeGuz]

You will never know - there comes a point when you just have to pick a hand and go with it. You did and lost this time. I'd prefer smoething like a paint T or coupled or one gapped say a T8s which has a lot of potential. But bottom line is you are headed for a hand where you have no decision so pick a hand and go with it.

[Martin Aigner]

Nope, this has nothing to do with weak tight. This is a strategical move. Unfortunatly the original poster didn´t mention the other stack sizes, how many players were left, what was the buy in and even which site it was on. I only play on Party / Empire, and therfore the little facts given lead me to some assumptions which fit to Party:

Blinds 200/400 should mean that there probably aren´t more than 4 or 5 players, which means in a buy in event of 50+ the average stack with 4 players was 2500 (in a 5 - 30 buy in averages stack would be 2000 when 4handed. Since original poster has way less, average stack size for the others go obviously up). Since original poster didn´t mention whether some other player was terribly shortstacked, too, I assume that all the others will have about average stacks. We don´t know whether this is true or not, but let´s simply assume it, OK?

Now UTG raises with A9o, but this raise means that he is all in, and that his raise is only a small fraction over the size of the BB. There is definetly no folding equity in this raise. In this case I´d expect that both, SB and BB will call me 95% of the time. If a player behind him to act has him beat he will call 95% of the time, too. So this will lead to a 3 handed pot most of the time, and most probably the pot will be checked down to the river.

On the other side I have the option of being raised by someone when I´m in the BB and to call him to be heads up. Heads up my chances of winning the hand will increase, no matter what I have. I think that survival in this szenario is more important than accumulating more chips with the higher risk of being eliminated.

The fact that the poster had A9 isn´t important to me in this hand. I´d raise only with the very best hand I´d get, maybe something like AJs (hands that also play good multiway) and better. I´d definetly muck the small pairs, BTW.

Don´t forget, if the raiser doubles up in the BB he has enough mo make a raise with folding equity again, which is extremly inportant.

Please don´t mistake this for being weak tight. This is 100% a strategical consideration. If original poster had something like 900 in his stack, he should have raised with any two, but having no folding equity can change everything, IMHO.

Just my thouoghts

Martin Aigner

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
In this case I´d expect that both, SB and BB will call me 95% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's mistake #1. Even four handed, the SB won't often call this without a playable hand. (You are also assuming that neither the button nor the SB will *reraise* instead of calling, which will often happen with worse than or relatively equal hands to A9o.)

[ QUOTE ]
most probably the pot will be checked down to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's mistake #2. Even with multiple calls, the guy who pairs up will almost always bet the other one out of the pot on the flop. That is both proper bubble strategy and beneficial to you; it leaves you against the better of two hands, but with A9o you will almost always be ahead or have outs.

[ QUOTE ]
On the other side I have the option of being raised by someone when I´m in the BB and to call him to be heads up. Heads up my chances of winning the hand will increase, no matter what I have.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is mistake #3. In the BB, your hand will be random, but you will not be up against a random hand; you will be against the best of the other three players' hands, because he'll raise and the others will probably fold. If you are lucky, it will be folded to SB, who will have a choice between folding a truly sucktacular hand (leaving you exactly where you started in the SB in the next hand) or forcing you all in when he holds something better than average. If not, your random hand is very likely to be a far bigger dog than you would've been with A9o.

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that the poster had A9 isn´t important to me in this hand. I´d raise only with the very best hand I´d get, maybe something like AJs (hands that also play good multiway) and better. I´d definetly muck the small pairs, BTW.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is *horrible*. I'm serious when I say that this has almost definitely cost you large amounts of money.

[ QUOTE ]
Please don´t mistake this for being weak tight. This is 100% a strategical consideration. If original poster had something like 900 in his stack, he should have raised with any two, but having no folding equity can change everything, IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding equity is a concern with a hand like 98s; it does not play too well if called and is probably a dog to BB's random hand if it is folded to BB. A9o is *way* too powerful a hand 4 way when you are that shortstacked to worry about folding equity- as is K8o, Q9s and probably even A2o.

[parappa]

Yes, I'd push here. The question I'd ask myself (I tend to play weak-tight) is whether you should've pushed with something else sooner.

[Martin Aigner]

[ QUOTE ]
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In this case I´d expect that both, SB and BB will call me 95% of the time.


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That's mistake #1. Even four handed, the SB won't often call this without a playable hand. (You are also assuming that neither the button nor the SB will *reraise* instead of calling, which will often happen with worse than or relatively equal hands to A9o.)

[/ QUOTE ]

At least at the limits I play the SB will call most of the time if calling won´t cripple him. And any hand that raises me will highly domitates my hand.

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most probably the pot will be checked down to the river.


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That's mistake #2. Even with multiple calls, the guy who pairs up will almost always bet the other one out of the pot on the flop. That is both proper bubble strategy and beneficial to you; it leaves you against the better of two hands, but with A9o you will almost always be ahead or have outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite true, since a) it´s very rare that a player bets in this szenario, and b) in a SnG with blinds that high it´s a bit of a crapshot, and therefore a bet on the flop from something like toppair doesn´t have to be proper strategy. This definetly is different when down to 5 players. Betting top pair 5handend is a must.

[ QUOTE ]
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On the other side I have the option of being raised by someone when I´m in the BB and to call him to be heads up. Heads up my chances of winning the hand will increase, no matter what I have.


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This is mistake #3. In the BB, your hand will be random, but you will not be up against a random hand; you will be against the best of the other three players' hands, because he'll raise and the others will probably fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Don´t forget, that with 4 players you will have the best hand preflop 25% of the time. So it´s likely that someone raises you with a hand worse than you anyway. Playing with A9o against a BB with 72o and a SB with JTs will eliminate you 2/3 of the time.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> Quote:
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Please don´t mistake this for being weak tight. This is 100% a strategical consideration. If original poster had something like 900 in his stack, he should have raised with any two, but having no folding equity can change everything, IMHO.


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Folding equity is a concern with a hand like 98s; it does not play too well if called and is probably a dog to BB's random hand if it is folded to BB. A9o is *way* too powerful a hand 4 way when you are that shortstacked to worry about folding equity- as is K8o, Q9s and probably even A2o. </pre><hr />

Folding equity is important everytime you are on some sort of semibluff. And while A9 might be a close one either way, A2 is clearly a -EV play in this scenario.

Best regards

Martin Aigner

[patrick dicaprio]

of course you made the right play, what else are you going to wait for?

Pat