Is Memory the thing that distinguishes the REALLY good players?

[Still the Spank E]

My question is already stated in the subject, but, to amplify: it seems that, when it gets right down to it, the REALLY successful players are distinguished by how well they remember how their opponents have played previous hands. Is this wrong? Should I be working to strengthen this capacity for remembering? I'm asking this because it occurs to me that everyone can (and largely HAS) read poker books to learn what you need to open an unraised pot from early position, and other, learnable things like that, but that, when you hear, say, T.J. Cloutier say "I may not remember your name if I meet you again ten years from now, but I'll remember your face and how you play poker," that he is, intentionally or otherwise, spouting the ultimate cosmic poker wisdom the way the oracle at Delphi did when Socrates and others made the pilgrammage there in search of true knowledge. Does memory separate the great from the merely good?

My motto: Get 'em & Bet 'em!

[Matt Flynn]

in pot limit and no limit there is no question an excellent memory is a huge and almost insurmountable edge. i suspect the r value for excellent memory corrolating with ability to read people runs in the 0.6+ range.

matt

[Pokrok]

I believe it is. Best example I can think of is stud. Be honest and ask yourself how many times you or your opponent has been waiting for a card that was already face up and buried? In the World Series Employee event this year I was able to take the chip lead on the final table with an AK vs AQ matchup based solely on the fact how my opponent played the same hand in the sixth hour of the tournament. Without being able to recall how he played the hand and betting manuerisms I could never had made the call on the final table. Am I saying I am a great player? Far from it. Does memory account for a huge portion of my success in poker? Absolutely. Hope this helps =o)

[Blarg]

I agree on memory being very important in stud. Many players don't seem to pay it much mind, but it can make all the difference.

Memory and alertness are related, and so are memory and understanding, and memory and creativity. Memory is a foundation and intimate part of much higher level thinking. So working on your memory means you're not only giving yourself the opportunity to think better; you're very likely flat out thinking better in the first place.

Good memory is a key skill in a lot of life. Get a good memory because you're interested in playing poker better, and you could well find yourself doing a lot of things in your life at least a little bit better, maybe a lot.

[The13atman]

Doyle Brunson has said this:

"The question I've been asked the most over the years is, "What does it take to make a good poker player?" Who knows what it takes? I don't know. It's an innate ability that you can't describe ... you just can't explain it. People have tried, but they can't do it. It's something inside you that causes you to pull away from the field. I do know that with just the knowledge and ability to play, you can play at a certain level, but you have to have that "something" inside you to pull away. It's a sixth sense, or an inclination to win, or something. How can you say, for instance, that I am a better player than David Sklansky or Mike Caro? I think that obviously I probably am, but the two of them are the foremost authorities on poker. They know everything ... the situations and what you're supposed to do... yet when it comes time to perform them, they can't do it. They chill up or something happens."
"The explanation I wrote in the book is the best one that I've ever thought of. And it's one that I had never thought about before I wrote the book (that's one reason why I'm glad I wrote it). It's a sense of recall that great players have. You recall what happened the last time you were in this same situation with a player of that caliber. Starting off, you put players in categories by watching their table mannerisms, the way they handle their chips, the way they handle their cards, and so on. You say to yourself that this guy's a certain kind of player, and that guy's a certain kind of player, and then when you get in a pot with them, you recall - subconsciously - the last time you were playing with a guy like that and a similar situation came up. So, you play according to the way the guy played previously. And that's the best way I can explain it."

[Lawrence Ng]

I have to agree with Doyle's statement here.

For the most part, poker is developed with solid skills, reads, experience, and savvy. But a small part of a true poker player has to be some sort of innate undefining sense that allows you to just know that the other person has whatever hand you put them. I have done it. I have seen many other players do it. It is undescribable for the most part.

Does it distinguish good players from bad players. No. Bottom line is whoever makes more money is the better player. It doesn't matter how they play, the end result is all that matter and money talks and everything can take a walk. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[CollegePlayer]

how many times do you run against the same players? maybe this is true on the tournament circut where you see the same faces, but playing online, not really...

[NaobisDad]

Learning is repetition, and the more concentrated you are, the better you learn.

Play often, whether you play life or online, if you run into the same people again and again, you will even unintentionally learn how they play.
That should more than make up for your not have a photographic memory. I don't have one. But I do learn that my succes is directly dependant of how often I play and how concentrated I am when I do so.

[Blarg]

Or in live casino play. Casino players very frequently see the same players every day. There even starts to develop a sense of a kind of "community" among them something like you'd see develop anywhere else. They may never talk about the play of the hands with regular players, but among the smaller community of people they've come to know and respect a bit, they might discuss hands and even think on problems and come back with a different take on them a day later. They often discuss honestly and frankly because they appreciate the feedback they themselves get from others -- two heads being better than one kind of thing. Bad beat commiseration is there but newer players tend to talk about them more; players who have been around for a while and know each other better are more likely to tell a bad beat story if there's a joke embedded in it somewhere, or just to discuss specific hands and situations in detail, or just socialize. Maybe even carpool to a different casino for a quick tournament and come back. Or to a strip club or bar, if it's that kind of night and they're into that.

Casino players may eventually know such a high percentage of the people they play with at least a little that the exception is the new guy nobody knows anything about.

[HoldingFolding]

Online I think Brunson's ability to "type" players is even more important. The more you play the greater the number of categories you can define and recognize.

And as you point out you're far less likely to run into the same players. So for me the most important factor is focus. You're concentrating on the game and categorising your opponents.

[SpeakEasy]

[ QUOTE ]
how many times do you run against the same players? maybe this is true on the tournament circut where you see the same faces, but playing online, not really...

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo! This thread is the part of the answer to what I've been searching for. I believe that memory, attention and awareness of the other players is a HUGE part of the game. At least for me.

I do very well at live games, but seem to flounder along online. I've never been able to understand exactly why, and I don't want to quit the online play because its good hand practice (staying in tune with the relative value of hands and the probabilities of drawing to, or getting outdrawn by, better hands).

I need to see real people and faces, and associate quality and history of play with faces. It comes from how a player dresses, acts, bets, whether they are suddenly quiet or talkative, facial expressions during the hand, and dozens of other little bits of information. Like in Brunson's quote, you just get a "feeling" about what the other player has rom observation and repetition.

I don't believe you have to play regularly with people or be part of a tournament circuit to reach a stage where you can get a decent read on a player. At a real table, I can routinely get a decent sense of the relative strength of another player's hand after about 2-3 hours at the same table with them. Its far from dead-on accurate after a short span of time, but its infinitely more accurate than if I were playing against the same group of people online.

This level of information is almost complete absent at an online table.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
This level of information is almost complete absent at an online table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is. That's why so many online players leap to discount it. As well as people who are not good at reading people. (And some pretty good players aren't.)

I wouldn't call it a "level" of play, though. It is in a sense, but it's more an aspect of play, and within that aspect of play, there are different levels of understanding.

People online can do well despite minimal social cues compared to those available online because that aspect of play isn't nearly as important online. If a keen attention to one's social environment and good judgment about it were a "level" of poker and not an aspect of it, the level of poker online would be very low, instead of online poker simply being a slightly different game that just emphasizes different aspects of poker in different proportion.

[Matt Flynn]

blarg, i think you are confusing skill and talent. memory cannot be learned and can only barely be practiced. if you have the talent good for you. but it is not an earned virtue. you got lucky.

so did i.

matt

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
if you have the talent good for you. but it is not an earned virtue. you got lucky.

so did i.

[/ QUOTE ]

People just suck at thinking in the ways that makes it possible for them to have a good memory.

~D

[Lazymeatball]

I read in Andy Bellin's "Poker Nation" how the example of Stu Ungar was used as an example of how memory is an aquired trait, not an inate talent.

Ungar was said to have had "total recall" and the passage goes on to explain how this was a result of Ungar childhood being brought up around gambling. His father was a local bookie and Stu would watch and memorize all the numbers and bets as he would get in trouble if he was caught writing them down. He learned to play gin rummy by watching over his mother's shoulder. It would seem this constant practice is what helped form his memory. Memory is a devoloped skill, not an aquired trait.

And as far for online poker vs live B&M, using software like Pokertracker which saves every hand you've ever played with someone online, you can develop a much larger database of information of someone's play online, the stuff that counts, like preflop betting habits and folding the BB to a steal attempt, then you ever could judging someone's dress or mannerisms. I realize though that this is probably more of a personal preference thing.