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Gamblor
08-19-2004, 10:46 PM
Essex boys sign up for "holy war" (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/islam/story/0,1442,656221,00.html)

Burhan Wazir
Sunday February 24, 2002
The Observer

Khalid Akhtar sounds like a typical fanatic. Standing outside a community centre in southern England last week, he branded Jews as 'devils' and called for a war on the enemies of Islam.
But Akhtar is different in one crucial respect from most of the extremists who gather at certain mosques around Britain and talk of revolution.

Once known as John, 29-year-old Akhtar is one of a new generation of white converts being recruited into British Islamic organisations with links to al-Qaeda. His home, the suburban town of Ilford on the London-Essex border, has become a flashpoint for extremist activity.

On Friday nights members of al-Muhajiroun, a UK-based militant group, gather in Ilford's Eton Road Community Centre to hear the charismatic spiritual leader, Sheikh Omar Bakri, denounce the West. On average, about 70 young British men - including 20 whites - attend.

Not far away, followers of the rival Hizbut-Tahrir meet at Ilford Library. The group rose to notoriety in 1996 when its leaders managed to attract enough support to book a religious demonstration at Wembley Arena. Their weekly sermon attracts a similar number of whites.

Since 11 September, al-Muhajiroun has proved itself to be the most rebellious section of the British Muslim community. The British shoe bomber Richard Reid, 28, was seen at several al-Muhajiroun meetings in Ilford in the months before his failed attempt to bomb American Airlines Flight 63 over Miami.

Several al-Muhajiroun members are prisoners at Guantánamo Bay in Cuba and in Kandahar after being captured while fighting for the Taliban. Groups like al-Muhajiroun and Hizb ut-Tahrir can count on a following of several thousand in places like Ilford and their founders are expanding the ranks by converting non-Asians to Islam. The borough of Redbridge - which includes Ilford and has 230,000 people - is a fertile recruiting ground.

'Al-Muhajiroun has one goal,' said Anjam Choudry, its UK chairman. 'We would like to see the implementation of the sharia law in the UK. Under our rule this country would be known as the Islamic Republic of Great Britain. To do that, attracting young Asians is not enough. So we are making a conscious effort to recruit large numbers of non-Muslims.

'Whites, Chinese, Japanese and Indians in this country are all bored with the capitalist system. It's a bankrupt ideal. We have found that young non-Muslims, like our Asian followers, want something new. You can tell that from the anti-globalisation movement. So we're offering them something pure: a religious mission, the values of sharia law and jihad.'

'I never felt like I belonged anywhere,' said Mohamed Khan, 24, formerly known as Alan and a white convert in al-Muhajiroun. He said he was disillusioned with Christianity. 'It didn't give me any sense of respect. No one goes to church any more. At least the mosques are full, so Islam obviously has something.'

His friend, Salim Yunus, 20, also a former Christian, said that in al-Muhajiroun they were led by example. 'You look at your average church priest, and what does he do? Who would he go to war with? No one. So how can Christianity claim to be a religion when its followers don't believe in spreading the word? The fact that Western politicians like Bush and Blair are scared of Islam means that it is a great religion. Sheikh Bakri knows that: he would die for it.'

Last week an Islamic cleric in Ilford, Sheikh Abdullah el-Faisal, 38, was arrested in a dawn raid at his home and charged with making race-hate speeches under the Offences Against the Person Act of 1861. El-Faisal, whose taped speeches have titles such as 'No Peace With The Jews', appeared at Bow Street magistrates court in London on Thursday. As he left the courtroom, one supporter called out: 'Allah is the final judge.'

The white Muslims don't see themselves as having converted. They think they have reverted to their original faith. Salim Yunus, Mohamed Khan and Khalid Akhtar have their own Islamic role models - Osama bin Laden, Richard Reid and the followers of al-Qaeda.

'There is a clear rise in the politics of identity,' said Paul Weller, Professor of Inter-Religious studies at Derby University. 'Young white men who join Islam might be feeling out of place from modern life. So you find that when they join a religion like Islam they have an unbending view. Their views on jihad, for example, might be less compromising than the views of people who were born Muslims.'

One white convert, Suleyman, a former drug addict from London's East End, said that a holy war was an obligation, not a debatable option. 'Richard Reid tried it and he was right to,' he said. 'Islam has enemies everywhere. It's up to Allah's soldiers to secure a victory.'

poorbus96
08-19-2004, 11:00 PM
Islamic ideals suck.

mmcd
08-19-2004, 11:09 PM
What has to happen before we really take the gloves off and eliminate this threat to our way of life?

Usul
08-20-2004, 12:42 AM
Ever consider that your way of life isn't always correct?

Gamblor
08-20-2004, 12:48 AM
I know what isn't correct, and stoning women for adultery and Islamic laws restricting freedoms ain't correct.

Morally, perhaps their objective is okay. I'm all for modesty and kindness to strangers. But by definition that would prohibit one from enforcing those values on others.

Usul
08-20-2004, 01:06 AM
I'm not defending muslim extremists here, but I think the North American way of life in many ways just as wrong as these extremists. We just have better ways of desensitizing ourselves.

mmcd
08-20-2004, 03:02 AM
I realize that other cultures may disagree with the "North American" way of life, and I also realize that we attempt to impose our views on other cultures. I think the current problems with Islamic extremists and terrorists is pretty much a manifestation of Huntington's thesis and regardless of any questions about which values are inherently better, I am on the one side and they are on the other. This isn't a problem that is going to simmer down or go away, and I think we should take a far more aggressive and comprhensive approach in fighting these radicals. It is a very bad idea to go after terrorists and their supporters in a half-assed piecemeal manner because it just won't work, and it allows (even encourages) the enemy the replenish their "soldiers" at a far faster rate than we are eliminating/capturing them. What we will end up with (and already have to a certain extent in Iraq) is a Vietnam-like quagmire. Now I think we were wrong to get into Vietnam (as obviously isn't the case here generally speaking), but one of the important lessons to be learned from that experience is: Don't go to war half-assed. Do what it takes to win and don't pull any punches. Once a country reaches the point of going to war the objective should be quite simple: Either eliminate the enemy's will to fight, or eliminate the enemy.

nicky g
08-20-2004, 04:54 AM
These aren't Islamic ideals. These are the ideals of a tiny extremist group with zero support among the mainstream of British Muslims.

vulturesrow
08-20-2004, 07:45 AM
Nicky G,

Why is is that extremism seems much more common of those of the Muslim faith than any other? I am not trying to be flip. I have defended "mainstream Muslims" in the past. But I am really starting to wonder if they arent actually the minority. It just seems that their is something in either Islam itself or the Arab culture that seems to promote and/or encourage this type of radical behavior.

Chris

nicky g
08-20-2004, 07:55 AM
I don't think that's true. You can find plenty of extremists in the Hindu community in India for example. The difference is that the Muslim community is much more widely spread than the Hindu community. You can find plenty of Jewish extremists in Israel; but there are many many more Muslims than Jews and again, the are more widely spread. As for Arabs, you can find plenty of ethnic extremists in Africa or the Balkans or half a dozen other places.

The focus on Islamic extremism comes from the fact that as I said, Muslims are a bigger community and more widely spread than many other groups that contain an extreme element, and perhpas more importantly the fact that it militant Islam taken on an anti-American/Western character leading to events such as 9/11. Why that should be so is a big question; but you can bet that if Hindu mobs were burning the US embassy rather than local mosques, we'd hear a lot more about them.

Cyrus
08-20-2004, 11:06 AM
"It seems that there is something in either Islam itself or the Arab culture that seems to promote and/or encourage this type of radical behavior."

This is because the Arabs, and consequently Muslim Arbas, are in the thick of the last (and most midless) conflict on this Earth, between Israelis and Palestinians. The conflict has radicalised Arabs to the point that, in the Cold War, they sought refuge in the embrace of the Soviet Bear -- despite them being the most anti-communist regimes in the area, much more than Israel ever was anti-communist.

And to the point that, now, they find recourse in terrorism.

But don't take my word for it. Take the word of the chief CIA spook who wrote the recent best-seller:

"Bin Laden, Mike Scheuer believes, is not a lonely maverick, but draws support from much of the Islamic world, which resents the US not for what it is, but for what it does - supporting Israel almost uncritically, propping up corrupt regimes in the Arab world, garrisoning troops on the Saudi peninsula near Islam's most holy sites to safeguard access to cheap oil."



Article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/story/0,12469,1287015,00.html)

MMMMMM
08-20-2004, 11:25 AM
Cyrus,

There is no doubt something to what you say, but it would be wrong to think that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is the entire source of the larger conflict between Islam and the West. Of course it has helped significantly to build tensions.

There is a disctinction between those Muslims who are primarily preoccupied with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and those radical Muslims who are focused on the greater jihad picture. Granted there is a fair amount of overlap, but there are quite a number of jihadists whose primary concern and raison de etre is not the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. These jihadists wish to expel all foreigners from "Arab lands", restore the Caliphate, impose Shari'a--and eventually do the same all over the world. bin-Laden's was not created by the Palestinian conflict--his beliefs and followers are the expected inevitable extension of the extreme Wahhabism of the Saudis.

Additionally, there are more outwardly violent verses and invocations to fighting non-believers in the Koran and in the Hadiths than in the texts of any other major religion, to my knowledge. It is also noteworthy that Mohammed himself was a warlord--the only founder of any major religion who was such, I would guess. So there is a greater inherent bias in the philosophy of Islam itself, than in other major religions, towards fighting non-believers and towards jihad.

Stir it all together, and exacerbate some of the inherent philosophical inclinations to jihad by adding certain dissatisfactions and perceptions of unfairness, and we arrive at the current sad state of affairs.