Complete bluff with KQs.

[nepenthe]

A little note on my opponent: LOVES to bet/raise flop with any two, especially if the board looks dangerous. Same with turn if it looks dangerous to opponents. Gets sane on the river if he has nothing. Loves the Stop'n'Go. Basically this is the type of guy who, if the board has a 4-straight, has to be the one with the nut straight. If the board has a 3-flush, he invariably must have the flush. If the board is paired, he obviously has the 3oak. Until someone knocks him over the head, that is.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: nepenthe is Button with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">nepenthe raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (5.33 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, nepenthe calls.

Turn: (3.66 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, nepenthe calls.

River: (5.66 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">nepenthe raises</font>...
/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[zram21]

Fold the turn in this small pot. Even bad players get cards sometimes.

[balkii]

DISCLAIMER: no actually strategy in this post...just some rambling...

Can we assume he's not folding a pair to your river raise? If thats the case then the only reason to raise the river is if he holds A-high. And he needs to fold that.

These are very tricky players, and tough to beat when you hold a hand like this. Looking at a JJ2 flop, you are very inclined to believe he is bluffing. But are the effective odds there to call down the whole way with K-high? I am assuming 3-betting the flop on a purebluff is in this guys bag of tricks. So raising as defense against a semi-bluff isn't such a great idea.

I'm really torn on this hand. You are either slightly ahead (to a six-out draw), slightly behind (with your six-out draw), or nearly (but very rarely) dead. I have been known to take many different lines here, all of which are probably wrong:

a) just fold the flop
b) call the flop, fold the turn unimproved
c) call the whole way down, and look like an idiot when he value bets A-high on the river against you
d) spew chips somewhere on the flop or turn against a LAG, and then fold
e) your line.

Someone else probably could help you more...but its an interesting hand.

[MoreWineII]

If I could figure out wtf villian would fold for one more bet on the end, I might like the play a little better...?

[nepenthe]

I cannot say with certainty if he calls down with Ace-high, but I have seen him fold when raised on the river. I do not know if he will fold a small pair/PP, but my image at that table was pretty tight. I've folded many flops beforehand to his bets. I very rarely ever try a pure river bluff, but then again I like to post hands where I do something slightly different from my norm.

[nepenthe]

And yes, he would most definitely have 3-bet this flop as a pure bluff if I raised. If raised on the turn, he probably would not have reraised as a bluff but would probably have called with ace-high.

[Rudbaeck]

I've played this villain or his clone at 2/4. There is a subset of LAGs that actually fold on the river if you take Nephente's line.

Villain (if he is one of those) got burned by people 'letting the lag do the betting' one time too many, and now stops being a lag when shown strength, especially on the river as any hint of semi is now gone from his bluff.


Hmm, on closer thought it can't have been the same guy. My guy would invariably limp-reraise against a lp raise on his ep limp, even if he only held 43o. (Which, actually, he did once.)

Still, if Nephente's read is right I think the play has merit.

[BaronVonCP]

methinks if he folds you were winning anyways

[bernie]

The spot to bluff, er, semibluff, imo, is on the turn. Since that would most look like a slowplayed trips. Which is very common how most would play it. Then if he calls, he may have picked up a draw. So you may have to fire again on the river. Pretty much the same cost as you did, but more believable. Think of how your play looks to your opponent(s) based on how 'they' play hands. Then factor you image in later. They may not care about your image anyways and only think of how/what 'they'd' play in that spot.

b

[nepenthe]

He did fold the river.

It's possible he held an ace and let go of it. It's also slightly less probable that he folded a small pair. Finally, it's entirely possible that I had the best hand. On the next hand I was in, I folded to his flop bet. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[RicktheRuler]

I would raise him on the turn, giver your understanding of this player...if he calls you can assume the he may have picked up a flush draw--as he must assume he is behind in the hand (unless he holds a J which is a different story).

[nepenthe]

My decision to raise the river as opposed to the turn was in part based upon my sheer unwillingness to have to bluff twice (since if I bluff the turn and he calls, as he most likely will, I have to bluff the river). I understand it's the same overall cost, but it is more unnerving to me personally. If he calls my turn raise, then all kinds of thoughts begin swimming inside my head regarding his possible holdings. Whereas a single river raise, I believe, is at least as believeable as a turn raise/river bet and serves to give the opponent the poignant feeling of having been trapped all the way to the last street. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
My decision to raise the river as opposed to the turn was in part based upon my sheer unwillingness to have to bluff twice (since if I bluff the turn and he calls, as he most likely will, I have to bluff the river). I understand it's the same overall cost, but it is more unnerving to me personally. If he calls my turn raise, then all kinds of thoughts begin swimming inside my head regarding his possible holdings. Whereas a single river raise, I believe, is at least as believeable as a turn raise/river bet and serves to give the opponent the poignant feeling of having been trapped all the way to the last street

[/ QUOTE ]

The point i was trying to make is few would play it this way. Thinking players would, but not common players. Think of how 'they'd' play rather than how you would view the hand. You have to sometimes 'dumb' down the thinking to your opponents level. Which is why bluffing the turn tends to work better. They likely won't feel as trapped as they would if you raised the turn. Playing it this way may put enough seed of doubt in for them to call. It's just not as common. It can look like a weird bet. Betting 2 streets reinforces that you do actually have something to bet with. Raising the river they only have to call 1 bet, psychologically. The other way, they have to call 2. The turn raise, their mind will be swimming and wondering if the river bet is coming. Cost to you: The same. make sense?

Also, if you're 3 bet on the turn, you can safely fold. Saving a bet. It's rare that someone will 3 bet a turn raiser in this spot without a great hand.

Not saying doing it your way won't work, i just think against most players, the turn works better. Against more thinking/tighter opponents, i like your way better. But they have to prove to me that they're this type of player before i adjust for this.

b