Identifying 2+2ers in the jungle.

[golFUR]

I just had a great SnG in which I and three others fought on the bubble from 75/150 all the way to 200/400 before we had a 4th place finisher. When I went out in 3rd we were just a few hands shy of breaking my personal record for longest SnG. It had occurred to me that one or both of the remaining players might be a 2+2er, but if they aren't... well...

How do you find out without sending the rest of the flock on over to see what those two are talking about?

[illunious]

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=929058&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&vc=1)

[Alien Zulu]

this being my first time here i'm just trying to figure out what this site has to offer me and what i need to know about it and the players here.

i take it that not many people like to talk about this site at internet tables so that there aren't hoards of people coming here. is that correct?

i just found this site because i picked up the "small stakes..." book yesterday

i've never played for real money online
i'm too nervous about the legitamacy of the sites that offer it. but i have turned my $1000 in play money at pokerroom.com into over $50,000. i know that's probably not much to brag about and that it is very different playing with real money but i am also a consistent winner in card rooms.

i will look around this board some more before asking questions but if someone wants to make me feel more at ease about depositing money online it would be appreciated.

thanks

AZ

[AKQJ10]

I'd try, "Hi, are you familiar with the forums at twoplustwo.com?" but I gather you don't find that satisfactory. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Seriously, no offense but trying to keep this site your personal secret strikes me as a little ridiculous. It's not like this site is in any way hidden from the person who wants to do the research to improve their poker game. I gave some fellow microlimit O8 fish this URL. I would be surprised if more than one or two people from that table put in the effort to come over here, become a regular, and improve their game. By that time i fully expect that i've improved my game too so i'll be playing at higher limits. It's just really not a big deal.

In other words, the idea that giving people this URL is going to cause a mass improvement in the level of play is a bigger "monster under the bed" than anything that happens during a hand.

[golFUR]

I agree to an extent with both the content and tone of your response. I have to disagree in application though. If I post a link to 2+2 at my table, or mention it, only every tenth session. If only 1 in 9 of the other people there bothers to check it, if only every other one of those sticks around... I'm still making it harder on myself.

No, 2+2 is not a secret, it isn't hidden, and anyone serious about improving their game is going to find it. I am not going to make it easier though. It strikes me as a very weak form of table coaching. To chastise someone after a bad hand, to start explaining why they did not have proper odds for that call, to complain or do anything that changes the tone.. these are all by default bad things. Most everyone agrees that you should just mumble 'nh' and take a note. To me it just seems a simple extention of that philosophy that neither do you mention chapter and paragraph of a great book or which specific post over at 2+2 is relevant.

As I noted in the original post, in my opinion these were some very solid players. They would most likely find 2+2 a great help and would be less likely to give it a once over and wander back out. While I'm super happy I am here and I believe this is a fantastic tool for my game, I'm not going to let my joy blind me to the fact that I use this to make money, that I make money only when other people make mistakes, and that anything I can do to keep those mistakes going is keeping my earnings going....

Sure, a mention or two, here and there, is not going to make 2+2 more popular than Google. BUT, no mentions at all is sure going to insure that I, personally, am not contributing to my own loss in earnings.

It seems to me that this kind of attention to detail, this sort of attention to even the smallest of odds... is what is responsible for making a good player great. "Monster under bed"? Perhaps. But monster or no, I'm still hearing things under there.

[AKQJ10]

I also recognize that my motivations aren't necessarily the same as others on this site. I play poker to 1. have fun 2. get some social interaction 3. maybe learn to make some money. Granted, it's a great thing when you can make money from your hobby, but it's not the primary motivation. I feel a bit like some artisan who does artistic or creative work on the side but keeps their day job. The prospect of cash flow is a nice bonus but not really the motivation. If i wanted to maximize $/hr i'd go to law school, not play poker.

I recognize that different motivations for playing poker will lead to different courses of action. No harm in that, but i'm not going to stop talking about 2+2 to protect somebody's cash flow. For the record i don't go giving unsolicited advice, not because i want to keep it a secret, but because experience teaches me that it has a negative EV in terms of friendly social interactions. In other words, most people get pissed off.

But i know how much others on this forum have already helped me, and i don't see their help as an entitlement. (Not to say that you do. ) So i try to pass the benefit along to those willing to receive it. The other day some guy was asking how to improve his game, and based on my motivations (but not yours) my small act of friendliness is a +ve EV play. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[golFUR]

You are right in that my motivations play a factor. Were I able tomorrow, I would be putting together my rent online. I have no desire to see a single one of my opponents get better. I say opponents as opposed to friends. I make friends online, I was told about 2+2 by a friend, I have told other friends. What is implied is that as a friend I am most likely able to IM them. Given the two mediums through which I can share info online, IM or table chat window...

It seems a small thing to think about while playing. And while at the lower limit tables maybe not so important. But there are people out there putting together rent online...

As to your reference to 'help as entitlement', well, I appreciated the caveat in parenthesis but.. I hope to, if not today than tomorrow, provide as much help as I receive. I imagine anyone able to learn as much as is offered would, over the time it took to learn it, come around to the same view.

[Alien Zulu]

[ QUOTE ]
I also recognize that my motivations aren't necessarily the same as others on this site. I play poker to 1. have fun 2. get some social interaction 3. maybe learn to make some money.

[/ QUOTE ]

i play poker to win money

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
i play poker to win money

[/ QUOTE ]

Good for you. I enjoy winning money too, but i'm not going to treat 2+2 like some kind of secret just to protect your earning potential or mine. That's not my duty.

[dogmeat]

If you want to know about a player, just type their name into the chat box with "zoo?" That will usually be ignored, or come back with yes.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[deacsoft]

[ QUOTE ]
No, 2+2 is not a secret, it isn't hidden, and anyone serious about improving their game is going to find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let them find it on thier own.

[PokerFoo]

Being able to apply information is harder than being able to find it. I'd bet most of the players many of you find to be profitable opponants have read more than one book from 2+2 publishing.

I wouldn't worry about keeping a secret that most people know about anyway.

[Alien Zulu]

so can anyone give me advice on what sites i can trust with my money and the safest way to deposit?

[QuickLearner]

I trust all of the "big" sites: PartyPoker, Poker Stars, Ultimate Bet, Absolute Poker, Paradise Poker, Pacific, and the Prima Network sites (Bet365, The Gaming Club, etc.). I'm sure that there are plenty of others, but I don't have direct experience with them. My definition of "trust" is that I am willing to keep a reasonable bankroll in their hands while I play actively there; if I decide to take some time off or play somewhere else exclusively my money comes out and I redeposit later if I choose to.

I believe the safest way to deposit/collect money is through a company called Neteller.com; I've used them for a couple of years and have no complaint whatsoever. Check out their site and call the support 800 number with questions. I'm sure you'll be satisfied.

I'm a new guy myself, so I have no business welcoming anybody to the forum, but lets not stand on ceremony. Welcome to the forum!

[wdbaker]

1. Do not try to smarten up your opponent, they will only resent you or come back and beat you later with what they've learned.
2. Always congratulate them on there bad beats against you, they are like a bank waiting for you to make a withdrawl.
3. If they realize that they don't know everything, they will no longer let you make withdrawls from the bank.
4. Most who are aware of 2+2 would prefer not to be outed, leave them alone at the table.

Just some thoughts
wdbaker Denver, Co

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
4. Most who are aware of 2+2 would prefer not to be outed, leave them alone at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point isn't that i intend to "out" anybody; the point is that i have every right to mention a public web site in whatever context i feel it's relevant. It's certainly not my responsibility to keep this site a secret just because somebody else feels that mentioning it would hurt their earning potential. If you don't want to answer my question, "Have you ever heard of twoplustwo.com?" then don't answer it. It's a free country, sorta.

And in response to golfUR's implication above that me mentioning 2+2 is going to cause somebody else to miss the rent payments -- any "pro" poker player foolish enough to stake the rent payments on a supply of fish that depends upon keeping a public Web site secret is far more deserving of my scorn than the most loose-passive of said fish.

[bolgenmod]

I've been lurking here for months, but not posting, as you can see from my "stats" (on the left). I've learned a lot from 2+2 (and other places), so enjoy or ignore the rants and glean the nuggets.

As for your questions, you can find answers to most of them if you look at the "Internet" forum here. People ask (and answer) the same questions over and over, which annoys some of the posters. Others will be more helpful and post a link to another thread which already answered your question.

As someone else already said, most of the big name sites can be trusted. There are conspiracy theorists out there (the cards aren't random/I start losing after I cash out), but they's mostly from Mars. (Or RPG, which is truly insane, but occasionally useful.)

Neteller is the consensus best way to move money in and out of the sites. Some people say that if you're paranoid, you should get a separate bank account for your poker $$. That also makes tracking your results easier. Can't hurt.

Small Stakes Hold 'Em is a great book. But you might also want to look at Internet Texas Hold 'Em by Matthew Hilger which is also excellent. And John Vorhaus's Killer Poker Online is pretty interesting -- he's an odd duck, but he has some very valuable things to say about the differences between online and "live" play.

Oh, and don't deposit money anywhere without getting a bonus. Most sites will give you extra money when you actually put money into play. You have to play a certain number of hands to get the money, but if you're going to play anyway, it's free money.

Hope this helps. You probably should have started a new thread, though -- you would probably have gotten more answers -- so next time you have a question, you might want to do that. Good luck.

b.

[Leo Bello]

I came here by searching without anyone telling me. I have pointed here maybe tw or three people max.
I think who wants to study and learn sooner or later will come here. But i agree that i will not spam it in tables all around. Poker is about edges, and if it is an edge to have someplace where u can discuss your hands, your mistakes and your good plays, then I will try to grab it and hope my adversaries don´t.
It is more or less like in Olympics, where some teams use videos, computer analised data, headsets, in resume technology to give an edge over others.
Poker Tracker, 2+2, books, videos, RPG, United Poker forum, Cardplayers, all tools, but tools that can be misused.

[Greg J]

In general people are too stupid, lazy, apathetic, and any other perjorative adjective you want to come up with, to inform themselves of much of anything. For example: people will buy books just for athsetic purposes -- they look good on a shelf. They won't read them. Most fish think that watching poker on TV is a great way to learn the game.

You can mention 2+2 all you want in a chat. The ones that want to improve are likely to find it independently anyway. I did. And the ones that are lazy, dumb, etc, will just ignore a twoplustwo.com link. It doesnt really matter -- you arent pissing in my Cherios.

[pokerstudAA]

If you could only cash that play money out....


Oh yeah - apparently "The brown trout sleeps in the closet" is the secret password. That should get you a response. Never seen it asked at my crappy $10 tables though.

[helpmeout]

I am new to 2+2 and someone at pacific said something about a brown trout and I didnt know wtf they were on about.

Then they asked if I knew bisonbison and well there were 2 of us who knew.

If there are 3 people in a 10c/20c game at pacific who know about 2+2 it cant be that well a kept secret.

[SevenStuda]

Use the secret 2+2 Code word.

-Dimitri

[wdbaker]

Its like advertising, the more you see it, hear it, smell it etc... the better the odds you will come and visit, then maybe one of those ten who visit will eventually begin to participate. Then there is one more person that I will eventually have to fight with over my steak cause I refuse to eat hamburgers /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

One Street at a Time
wdbaker Denver, Co