5/10 party - who is the bigger idiot?

[The Student]

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (2.20 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, BB calls.

River: (10.20 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.20 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 12.20 BB, between Hero and BB.</font>

This is my first post (not responding to someone's thread), but I'm not afraid of a little criticism. My main question here is: who is the bigger idiot? Me or the BB? To add a little more info, this was the BB's first hand at the table and I had recently sat down myself (so even if he had been watching the table before joining, I don't think he would have had a read on me). I try to mix up my play with a hand like this in EP, but this time I decided to raise. Immediately after the hand I started questioning whether I should have bet on the flop to protect against the flush and straight draws. Then I thought that I should have dropped on the turn when he re-raised me (giving him credit for the straight). Thoughts? Any other suggestions for how to play this?

Results in white below:
<font color="white"> Hero - Aces and queens.
BB - Kd/Qd - ace high flush to take it. </font>

[BigEndian]

Bet the flop, call the turn 3-bet, call the river. That's the line I would play.

The only clear mistake is the flop not being bet. Your opponent played fine and you need a better table than this fold-fest to an open raise.

- Jim

[Lumpy]

Just curious, what are you putting BB on here not to cap?
I wouldn't put him on KK with the lack of the preflop 3-bet. So the only hand you would be behind is J10. Just wondering for my own learning curve.

[BigEndian]

There's a number of hands here that beat you, the call the 3-bet decision comes from most low limit players at the full ring games don't shovel their chips in without a major holding. There's only a few holdings here that might elicit this kind of action and that I would be ahead of.

- Jim

[The Student]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop, call the turn 3-bet, call the river. That's the line I would play.

The only clear mistake is the flop not being bet. Your opponent played fine and you need a better table than this fold-fest to an open raise.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, in retrospect, I definitely should have bet the flop. I think my greed go the best of me here as I was thinking that I might scare the guy off if I bet the flop. This would leave me with a profit of only 1 BB, but if I managed to rope him into the hand by checking, then I could really build up a nice pot for myself. Of course, my greed also blinded me to the serious trouble I was in with the straight and flush draws out there (even if I was facing only one opponent). Thanks for the feedback, and I'll definitely raise next time (at a different table too).

Thanks again,

ts-

[ScottTheFish]

It's very dangerous to slowplay when you flop 2 pair with broadway cards, for obvious reasons.

[Louie Landale]

I don't like slow-playing in this spot since only the most brain-dead of folks won't suspect it: surely you would bet AK and JJ and 87s if you had it? Well, that leaves only big two pair or top set the hands you'll check.

When you raise the turn you are announcing slow-play. His 3-bet was rediculous making your 4-bet rediculous, unless you know he's a brain-dead idiot. Which perhaps he is.

If you routinely fold hands like this you will get eaten alive at the bigger limits since they'll notice, and even the little old men will steal one or two pots from you per night.

Once it looks like you are beat heads up like this with a strong hand, then pay it off. There are some obvious exceptions but not many.

As for betting the flop: the flush is going to the river. The gut-shot KJ, KT, JT, J9, or T9 is going to call a bet on the flop. So checking the flop isn't going to cost you the pot, except for the back-door draws like Kd4s.

Turns out you got the turn capped as about a 3:1 favorite, and that's real good theoretical "Sklansky Dollars". Cha Ching.

- Louie

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a number of hands here that beat you

[/ QUOTE ]
Namely JT and 88 unless this player would just call preflop with a premium hand. There are quite a few two-pair hands that could be in trouble here.

Capping the turn is the consistent play. You cannot check the flop to fool your opponent into giving you too much action and then panic when he does exactly that.

The problem on the turn underlines what a bad play checking the flop is. The board is scary which means there were a ton of reasons why your opponent might call the flop and make you some money. If he won't call the flop he is unlikely to ever make a hand good enough to call a bet. Worse yet, if he suddenly comes to life we don't even have a good enough hand to be happy about it.

[Brian]

I can't think of any hands where it is correct to check through on the Flop in last position with a good hand, or even the nuts. It's definitely not correct with a strong, but vulnerable holding such as top two on a very co-ordinated board. Your opponent will call your Flop bets with many hands, and will often be incorrect to do so. Let him.

[ QUOTE ]
I try to mix up my play with a hand like this in EP, but this time I decided to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should always be raising AQs from EP.

I don't think that the BB is an idiot. I wouldn't have 3-bet the Turn if I were him though. 9 times out of 10, when someone raises pre-Flop and then checks the Flop, he flopped a very strong hand. Earlier today, I limped UTG with 33, and the BB raised after 1 other limper. The Flop was K93r, and the BB checked. I immediately suspected KK, but figured he could have whiffed a big Ace or have a big pocket pair thats afraid of the King. I bet and he called, we were heads up to the Turn, which was a brick. He check-called again. The River was an Ace, and he bet. His play seemed very much like AQ or AJ, so I raised. When he 3-bet, I wasn't surprised at all to see the KK. What's the lesson here? Slowplaying cost him an assload of money. I'd have easily gone 3 bets on the Flop and capped the Turn before I suspected KK.

Slowplaying is really just dumb at the low limits. You do it to deceive your opponents into putting more bets in drawing dead or near dead, but they're willing to do that pretty much no matter how you play your hand. There are some good quotes in SSH concerning this.

-Brian

[The Student]

[ QUOTE ]


Slowplaying is really just dumb at the low limits. You do it to deceive your opponents into putting more bets in drawing dead or near dead, but they're willing to do that pretty much no matter how you play your hand. There are some good quotes in SSH concerning this.

-Brian




[/ QUOTE ]

I have only played a couple thousand hands online so far, but I am constantly reminded how correct you are. Today I saw some guy go to the river with a Q-hi bluff against 3 callers and a suited flop (he, of course, had none of the suit).

I'll keep checking the SSH board and start betting these flops. Thanks again for the advice.

ts-