Am I a LAG? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Chris Daddy Cool

08-19-2004, 12:24 PM

loose live 3/6 game with my fellow 2+2'ers sfer, bakku and bisonbison.

3 limpers to me on the button with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I raise? Blinds fold.

Flop: 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Checked to me. Do I bet my overcard + gutshot + backdoor flush or do I take the free pass?

Joe Tall

08-19-2004, 12:32 PM

Your raise is ok. We all know it's neutral EV for the most part. If your opponents are aweful preflop/postflop players you can turn this into a positive EV play in position here.

Bet this flop, you've got plenty of room to improve but this is without reads on your opponents. Surely live you had some. If they will, call, call, call w/any piece, I may take a free card. I will also take a free card if they are more likely to fold to a turn bet it you pick up more outs/make a hand.

Peace,
Joe Tall

brick

08-19-2004, 12:52 PM

I usually bet against three players. The more likely they are to fold on the turn, the more inclined I am to bet.

I would usually check against 5 or 6 players because it's much more likely to go to showdown.

Has every hand for the last 2 hours went to showdown? Sure there is a first time for everything, but I don't think this had is it. In other words, if they are very, very stubborn I like a check. (Would they call you down with J4 of hearts?)

nothumb

08-19-2004, 12:54 PM

Regardless of this hand, yes, you are a LAG.

I agree with your pre-flop play. I usually bet this flop, but I often don't feel good about it later.

NT

Louie Landale

08-19-2004, 01:01 PM

Not sure about the button raise. I'd bet the gut shot; but the 87 is boarderline. If it was 98 then surely the limpers have hit something (typical calling hands feature cards in the range 9-Q) but with 87 they can still fold QT.

Even so, taking the free card is a good idea against tricky folks who are going to check-raise you.

- Louie

bakku

08-19-2004, 01:05 PM

I'd just like to point out that Chris is probably seen as a total LAG at the table, he raises at least once an orbit and that's putting it mildly. He will get called down if anyone has hit any piece of the flop. Also, the button posts a live blind.

brick

08-19-2004, 01:11 PM

Then he should not bet this time.

StellarWind

08-19-2004, 01:49 PM

My preference is to call preflop but raising is OK.

Except that if you truly have a LAG image you should not raise preflop. This is a situation where a raise might work for me but not for you because of the difference in image.

You need to bet this flop to protect your hand. You could easily have the best hand and be folding 6-out draws. A slightly better ace might fold (but this is where the image thing comes in) which is a huge gain. Raising also enhances your chances of winning by spiking a five.

JSD

08-19-2004, 02:58 PM

Given that the button posts a live time charge of $3 (and thus the raise only costs CDC $3, not $6) I think this is a good raise.

I take the free card on the flop. Thats a big part of the reason you raised pre-flop, no? Also, there is NO WAY you are folding everyone, so its not a semi-bluff. And if its a value bet, its awfully thin.

StellarWind

08-19-2004, 03:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Given that the button posts a live time charge of $3 (and thus the raise only costs CDC $3, not $6) I think this is a good raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
The button blind is not a reason to raise. It is a reason to check.

Folding a suited ace on the button with three limpers is terrible. Blind or no blind, you have to put at least $3 into this pot. The question is whether we should pay an extra $3 to raise.

If you decide to raise, the blind nearly ceases to matter. The hand will play out the same as if there was no special blind and the $3 rake came from the general pot.

If you don't raise, the blind does matter. Ask any slightly observant player before the flop whether CDC has 72o. The answer will be a firm 'no' if CDC called but 'maybe' if he checked. It's useful for your opponents to have almost no idea what you have. It's the one advantage of having to pay a blind. CDC should have a higher EV when he checks than when he calls.

Raising forfeits this advantage. Put another way, it's easier for raise to be +EV in comparision to call than for it to be +EV in comparison to check.

If you believe this decision is normally a complete tossup, the blind should tip the scales in favor of checking. My preference is to wait for a better kicker no matter what, but I can accept that a raise is OK too, even with the blind. It seems to be a matter of style and judging the table.

sfer

08-19-2004, 05:59 PM

How about from around 9 pm to 11 pm where you saw every flop, about 40% for a raise? Or this hand:

CDC is UTG with 42o and raises.

Rudbaeck

08-19-2004, 06:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How about from around 9 pm to 11 pm where you saw every flop, about 40% for a raise? Or this hand:

CDC is UTG with 42o and raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the lowest limit spread in a real cardroom near me was $13/26 (!!!) I'd do this too for giggles. It's fun as <expletive deleted> to be/pretend to be the drunken moron of the table.

Online, well, you end up being seen as a pretty common character when you do it. If a LAG is missing at a Party table I start looking for him. It's like not finding any drunks in the emergency room at midnight a Friday night. He's hiding somewhere, probably in the broom closet.

MoreWineII

08-19-2004, 06:33 PM

I suppose if it was a live game the mis-click excuse doesn't work...although it might if you're really convincing.

Rudbaeck

08-19-2004, 07:47 PM

wasn't 13/26. (Second lowest is 26/52.)

sthief09

08-19-2004, 08:15 PM

it works for him though. he plays so maniacally preflop that it's hard to respect his bets postflop

we got involved in a 3/6 hand one time:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
4 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB (CDC) 3-bets, Hero caps, BB (CDC) calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
CDC bets, Hero raises, CDC calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
CDC bets, Hero raises, CDC 3-bets, Hero caps, CDC calls.

River: (14.16 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
CDC bets, Hero raises, CDC 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 20.16 BB
Main Pot: 20.16 BB, between Hero and CDC. > Pot won by CDC (20.16 BB).

Results in white below:
CDC shows Jd Jc (full house, jacks full of tens).
Hero shows Kh Qh (straight, ace high).
Outcome: CDC wins 20.16 BB. 

I operplayed my hand horribly just because he's such a douche preflop that I can't ever give him credit for anything. this isn't the first time I've done this against him and it won't be the last.

some other memorable hands:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG (CDC) raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls,

Flop: (10.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
BB checks, CDC bets, MP2 calls, CO raises, Button 3-bets, BB folds, CDC caps, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (13.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
CDC bets, MP2 calls, CO raises, Button calls, CDC calls, MP2 calls.

River: (21.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
CDC bets, MP2 calls, CO raises, Button folds, CDC calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 27.25 BB
Main Pot: 27.25 BB, between MP2, CO and CDC. > Pot won by MP2 (27.25 BB).

Results in white below:
CDC shows 2h 3c (one pair, twos).
MP2 shows Qs Ac (one pair, aces).
CO shows Kc 8s (one pair, kings).
Outcome: MP2 wins 27.25 BB. 

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
6 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB (CDC) 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
CDC bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.16 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
CDC bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.16 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
CDC bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.16 BB
Main Pot: 8.16 BB, between Hero and CDC. > Pot won by Hero (8.16 BB).

Results in white below: CDC shows 2s 4h (two pair, jacks and fours).
Hero shows 8h Qh (two pair, queens and jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.16 BB. 

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, MP1 (CDC) raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls,

Flop: (8 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB bets, BB folds, CDC raises, MP3 folds, SB 3-bets, CDC caps, SB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, CDC bets, SB raises, CDC calls.

River: (12 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets, CDC calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB
Main Pot: 14 BB, between CDC and SB. > Pot won by SB (14 BB).

Results in white below:
SB shows Td Tc (three of a kind, tens).
CDC shows 6h 5h (two pair, sixes and fives).
Outcome: SB wins 14 BB.

sfer

08-19-2004, 08:19 PM

He told us about this hand. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

But in all seriousness, I think some of the "I raised the flop to protect my gutshot and middle pair outs" hands are a little maniacal.

sthief09

08-19-2004, 08:23 PM

yeah I felt sick after that hand. playing against him is a humbling experience for me

I edited the post and added some more fun hands

bisonbison

08-19-2004, 08:56 PM

Chris and I right now are at an equilibrium. If we both have decent hands, we call each other down. If we both have crap hands, we raise every street. If one of us has a good hand and one of us has a crap hand, the good hand folds. With this, I am at peace.

Bakku, on the other hand, always looks like Chris just kicked his dog.

BeerMoney

08-19-2004, 09:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Checked to me. Do I bet my overcard + gutshot + backdoor flush or do I take the free pass?

[/ QUOTE ]

Take the freebie. These people aren't going anywhere, why bet someone else's hand?

sfer

08-19-2004, 09:19 PM

Lucky Chances 3/6. CDC is UTG and raises. UTG+1 coldcalls, one more coldcaller, folded to me in the BB and I 3-bet black Aces. All call.

Flop is 3 spades. I bet, CDC raises, UTG+1 calls, coldcaller folds, I 3-bet, all call. CDC says, "I have pair and a flush draw," and I say, "So do I."

Turn is a red blank. Bet, raise, coldcall, 3-bet, call, call.

River is the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Bet, call, fold. CDC has 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and MHIG.

Other tidbits. Twice CDC bet the value river and said, while waiting for a calls, "I win." Two other times he said, "Ship it!" CDC owns bakku. Bison wiped buffalo wing goo on his jeans, smearing them orange. Bison drinks like a fish and straddles like a porn-star. Bakku can change tires. Bison's pyramid exhibited 3rd level thinking. CDC spilled pork juice all over himself.

Why am I always the oldest one at these all night fiascos?