Championship NL and PL Holdem - controversial advise?

[BlueBear]

Hi,

This in an excellent book written by Cloutier and McEvoy but I have a query about some advise which I think is far too weak-tight.

In the chapter 4, "How to win NL Holdem Tournaments", there is a section called "Playing ace-king after the flop", and it says

"The AK is the most misplayed hand in NL poker. Say that you have raised with AK from a front spot and one or two people have called. The board comes with 9-7-3, three suits. What do you do with AK? I don't care whether or not I've raised before the flop, I never bet AK when the flop comes three rags."

I believe there may be a time to check the flop and occasionally betting here in different cases. To overgeneralize this situation by suggestion to never bet can't be right, can it? Seems too weak-tight to me.

An Ace or King won't be flopped most of the time, and by checking in this spot 100%, a sharp opponent will just steal the pot from you here.

Any opinions?

[TomCollins]

If you haven't read McManus's book, Positively Fifth Street, TJ blatantly ignores this advice. He knows Jim has read his book and keeps betting AK thinking that Jim would fold, thinking TJ must have a hand. But Jim calls and wins with a huge pot with not much of a hand (details shady in my mind).

I dont think its correct to always do the same thing with any hand, and I'm sure TJ agrees.

[BlueBear]

I wonder why TJ provides this advise, it's too weak-tight, it's misleading, it's plain wrong to over-generalize and it's even a little dangerous in the hands of an inexperienced tournament player.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder why TJ provides this advise, it's too weak-tight, it's misleading, it's plain wrong to over-generalize and it's even a little dangerous in the hands of an inexperienced tournament player.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why the book isn't excellent as you quoted, in fact it's piss-poor, the advice is spotty at times and downright weak-tight overall.

[PokerSlut]

[ QUOTE ]
"The AK is the most misplayed hand in NL poker. Say that you have raised with AK from a front spot and one or two people have called. The board comes with 9-7-3, three suits. What do you do with AK? I don't care whether or not I've raised before the flop, I never bet AK when the flop comes three rags."

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the issue here is that you are out of position with no hand, and one or two people who have called your EP raise. Assuming they at least have an inkling of the Gap Concept, there is a very large range of hands that will destroy AK on this board. Your only hope is that they have called with a lower Ace (I could see some people calling with AQs-ATs hoping to catch a nut flush or broadway draw) or smaller suited connector like KQs or JTs because otherwise they are going to like this flop. Betting into a late position caller who has either caught a piece of the flop or has an overpair holding only ace high is tricky business. If you think that they can put you on a large pocket pair that beats whatever they are holding, and that they will lay down their hand most of the time in this case, by all means go for it. Also, if they are short-stacked and the risk to you isn't too great, you can just put them all-in and hope to suck out if they call. Otherwise I believe a good player can find better places to risk their chips. In particular, playing the same situation, only from late position instead.

[pistol78]

I DOnth think the championship Series as a whole is as great as it seems IMO. Its very conversational and really i think it just talks about situations that are more common sense than strategic.

"If you hold KK and someone goes all-in who you think has AA you should fold"

Yeah TJ but I didnt pay 30 Dollars to find that out.

The Limit book is the same way. Tom gives the same advice with AK on a ragged flop. I hate that advice. My friend read the book (after paying almost 40 for it) and plays this way. EVERY SINGLE TIME he raises with AK and misses the board he checks. and EVERY SINGLE TIME HE raises with a pocket pair he bets. I think you are giving to much away by ALWAYS checking AK when you miss. IMO of course.

[mikimaus]

It's about reading hands; what he/they figure to have and the likelihood of them calling, while generally one might think it's a 50-50 spot heads up in some cases, but then one might bet 3/4 of the pot, but overall (with [high]second pairs too that Ciaffone [and Acespade] also is more likely to check at AXX or PXX flops while bet the slick there; he didn't mention about low flops I think, while the McEvoy generally advices to take a stab at the low flops, and acespade software shows 50-50 preference from the math point of view) T.J. has his idea that betting costs the same as checking and calling, but he figures that his opponent will make just one try at the pot (that's not generally the case at lower limits? With 2nd pair it rates to work better and the opponent is more likely to 2/2 check the turn?), so it's a hand reading question, and this T.J. view question.

[Michael Davis]

Actually, TJ is betting heavy with an A9 (I believe) and McManus calls him down with AK. After the hand McManus says something about Cloutier's book and Cloutier responds with, "It didn't teach you to play AK like that."

-Michael

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
"What do you do with AK? I don't care whether or not I've raised before the flop, I never bet AK when the flop comes three rags."

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think "never" means never in the book. Its just the way they writes.

Like if you say: "I always order that stupid last beer one minute before closing time". You dont mean "always", you mean normally.

And yes, normally - if you do a decent raise preflop - you should not put in a lot of $ with AK if flop doesnt help you.

Of course, if you often check when you dont hit, you have to, at least sometimes, check when you hit 2.

[cthomer5000]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, TJ is betting heavy with an A9 (I believe) and McManus calls him down with AK. After the hand McManus says something about Cloutier's book and Cloutier responds with, "It didn't teach you to play AK like that."

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the hand in that situation was AQ, which CLoutier says to never call a big bet with.

[brewmeister6]

I bought the book, skimmed it, and realized it wasn't worth my money... I returned it the next day... It has too many examples on "how to play ace ace" (which really isn't too helpful) I thought I could get a better book for its price...

I like the advice with the small pocket pairs... Play if you hit, fold if you miss... but I will usually pay a little more to see the next card if its cheap enough and their are no big draws...

[burningyen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, TJ is betting heavy with an A9 (I believe) and McManus calls him down with AK. After the hand McManus says something about Cloutier's book and Cloutier responds with, "It didn't teach you to play AK like that."

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the hand in that situation was AQ, which CLoutier says to never call a big bet with.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, it's definitely TJ's A9o vs. McManus' AKo. Blinds at $5k/10k, $2k antes. Jim raises to $50k, TJ re-raises to $150k, Jim calls. Pot is ~$350k, TJ now has $500k, Jim $400k. 3 rags on the flop, Jim checks, TJ bets $200k, Jim calls. Another rag on the turn, TJ puts Jim all in, Jim calls all in. Another rag on the river, Jim takes the pot and the chip lead. I would've $#!+ my pants.

[Beavis68]

They are just general principals, winning players will never play ABC poker 100% of the time, I see a LOT of people go broke with AK after a flop misses them.