River Bluff, how'd I do?

[fatduck]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed)

UTG (t2050)
UTG+1 (t1490)
MP1 (t1470)
MP2 (t1960)
MP3 (t1280)
CO (t1390)
Hero (t1470)
SB (t460)
BB (t1930)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t20, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls t20, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls t20, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t100) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets t220</font>, MP1 folds, Hero calls t220, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (t540) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets t20</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t200</font>, UTG calls t180.

River: (t940) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets t1030 (All-In)</font>, UTG folds.

Final Pot: t1970

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows Qc 5c (high card, queen).
Outcome: Hero wins t1970. </font>

[Hood]

You did really well, because he folded and you won the pot uncontested /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The problem with asking for opinions on a move like this is it's totally depending on the player and the game. Now personally speaking I pretty much never cold bluff early on in the tourney. I find it's simply not worth the risk.

What do you put the guy on? To me it looked like he's on a straight or flush draw (that silly min bet on the turn just screams of "ok I'm drawing, if I bet maybe he'll just call and I'll get to see the river cheaply"). So that ten on the river could have made him the straight. And if he missed his draw, then you're Q high has a good chance of winning anyway. So I find that river bet way too risky personally.

I would have played the hand quite differently though - the flop is an easy fold for me. Thats 2x pot bet my UTG is scary. You haven't got anywhere near the odds to call this. Let him take it down and move on. And the turn raise is too small here - he's not going to fold here with 540 in the pot so I think you achieve nothing.

[compsolv]

I am trying to improve my ability to bluff - in fact, I am trying to learn to bluff period . . .I appreciate this post and it looks like a great bluff on the river!

But like the other poster here, my issue with this hand is that I would never be in it at the river, unfortuntely. I would never be able to call his flop bet with a Queen high flush draw. In fact - I put your opponent on an Ace or King high flush draw. So I guess your bluff really starts on the flop when you call.

What was your thought process in calling the flop bet?

Once your committed like that - I love your raise on the turn to take control and set up the later all-in.

[Roman]

terrible call on the flop.

[fatduck]

[ QUOTE ]
What was your thought process in calling the flop bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

No thought process. Was playing 2 ring games + 2 tourneys, mistakenly called without odds.

After the turn I put him on a flush or straight draw.

[fatduck]

[ QUOTE ]
You did really well, because he folded and you won the pot uncontested /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The problem with asking for opinions on a move like this is it's totally depending on the player and the game. Now personally speaking I pretty much never cold bluff early on in the tourney. I find it's simply not worth the risk.

What do you put the guy on? To me it looked like he's on a straight or flush draw (that silly min bet on the turn just screams of "ok I'm drawing, if I bet maybe he'll just call and I'll get to see the river cheaply"). So that ten on the river could have made him the straight. And if he missed his draw, then you're Q high has a good chance of winning anyway. So I find that river bet way too risky personally.

I would have played the hand quite differently though - the flop is an easy fold for me. Thats 2x pot bet my UTG is scary. You haven't got anywhere near the odds to call this. Let him take it down and move on. And the turn raise is too small here - he's not going to fold here with 540 in the pot so I think you achieve nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the reply. A couple things you mentioned here I totally didn't consider and are good points. One that he may have hit his straight draw; for some reason I just assumed he was on a flush draw (which now that I think about it is less likely since I hold two clubs) or I also considered that he might have just been taking a stab at the pot with overcards or low pair. I definitely should have considered the ten before pushing here.

Also the fact that I may have him beaten already with queen high, thus making a bluff on the river useless. I guess I just sort of read "hes on a draw" and didn't think specifically about what he might have. Maybe I should have value bet! (kidding)

I'm by no means a great player (yet?) and these are things I'll work into my game.

[Lori]

Preflop:

Hero is investigated by police for 20 counts of first degree murder.

Flop:

Hero is put on most wanted list for 220 counts of first degree murder.

Turn:

Hero decides against free holiday package, 180 go missing.

River:

Hero breaks into a bank without a mask and in full view of CCTV and tries to pull an armed robbery.
The Hero got away this time, but the law enforcement officials are confident they will catch him should he repeat the offences.

Result:

The suspect risks life sentence for 500 chips.

Lori

[fatduck]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop:

Hero is investigated by police for 20 counts of first degree murder.

Flop:

Hero is put on most wanted list for 220 counts of first degree murder.

Turn:

Hero decides against free holiday package, 180 go missing.

River:

Hero breaks into a bank without a mask and in full view of CCTV and tries to pull an armed robbery.
The Hero got away this time, but the law enforcement officials are confident they will catch him should he repeat the offences.

Result:

The suspect risks life sentence for 500 chips.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

slightly less helpful, but thanks

[Stoneii]

I personally think Lori's piece should be very helpful to you - try read it again.

G'Luck

stoneii

[Toro]

I have a problem with 3 things you did in the hand.

1. Preflop: Q3 I fold. Why did you play it? Because it was suited, right? Remember this, starting with 2 suited cards you will make a flush by the River only once every 14 times. And occasionally someone will have a higher flush and bust you. So the flush value is minimal, imo. So suppose you hit the Q on the flop. Where are you with that kicker? Bad shape imo. You're going to bleed off a lot of chips. Remember a queen is a card that is in the playing zone that a lot of players like to see a flop with. QJ, QK, QT, etc.

2. Postflop: Repeating what others have already said it. You're not getting odds for this call. But it could have gooten worse. Suppose UTG had a real hand, suppose he limped in with AA or KK. You're not going to see a 20 bet on the turn. You're probably going to see him push it all in and like a lot of guys you'll throw your hands up and say "well I've gone this far with the draw" and call. Maybe not but again you're in bad shape.

3. Posthand: Why did you show the bluff? It could be argued that showing the bluff will get you action later but imo you're better off not letting opps know you're capable of making this play. I don't know you but I think a lot of players like to show their successful bluffs to stroke their own ego.

[Hood]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You did really well, because he folded and you won the pot uncontested /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The problem with asking for opinions on a move like this is it's totally depending on the player and the game. Now personally speaking I pretty much never cold bluff early on in the tourney. I find it's simply not worth the risk.

What do you put the guy on? To me it looked like he's on a straight or flush draw (that silly min bet on the turn just screams of "ok I'm drawing, if I bet maybe he'll just call and I'll get to see the river cheaply"). So that ten on the river could have made him the straight. And if he missed his draw, then you're Q high has a good chance of winning anyway. So I find that river bet way too risky personally.

I would have played the hand quite differently though - the flop is an easy fold for me. Thats 2x pot bet my UTG is scary. You haven't got anywhere near the odds to call this. Let him take it down and move on. And the turn raise is too small here - he's not going to fold here with 540 in the pot so I think you achieve nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the reply. A couple things you mentioned here I totally didn't consider and are good points. One that he may have hit his straight draw; for some reason I just assumed he was on a flush draw (which now that I think about it is less likely since I hold two clubs) or I also considered that he might have just been taking a stab at the pot with overcards or low pair. I definitely should have considered the ten before pushing here.

Also the fact that I may have him beaten already with queen high, thus making a bluff on the river useless. I guess I just sort of read "hes on a draw" and didn't think specifically about what he might have. Maybe I should have value bet! (kidding)

I'm by no means a great player (yet?) and these are things I'll work into my game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad I could help. I'm really not meaning to sound like git here, but I would suggest not multi-tabling when you're working on your game. The call on the flop was really quite poor, and will really effect your results if you don't notice these things.

I'm doing exactly the same. When I first started to SNG, I always had 2-4 on the go because 1 was boring. But that didn't give me the chance to focus and improve my game, and I was making silly mistakes. I now just play one - it's dull, but I feel I'm thinking more about the game, making much fewer mistakes, and I think my results will be much happier because of it.

[Lori]

Glad I could help. I'm really not meaning to sound like git here, but I would suggest not multi-tabling when you're working on your game

Very true.

When considering bluffing, you have to consider what impact it will have on the game.
What are the overall impacts of the following results:

1) Losing all your chips.
2) Winning a small pot with a bluff
3) Winning a medium pot with a bluff
4) Winning a small pot with a made hand.
5) Winning a large pot with a made hand.

Whilst this all seems obvious, it is at the very heart of NL SNG poker, sometimes a chip doesn't carry as much $ value as others.

Imagine you get away with this bluff twice in three.
In cash terms, this would be a reasonable payoff (depending on where you really define that the bluff began), however in tourney terms, it means that one time in three you are out already.

When we are trying to get in the money around 50% of the time, giving 33% away for such a small pot makes your task much much harder.

Lori