Military Records Contradict Kerry Critic

[Cyrus]

WASHINGTON — Military records appear to contradict claims by Larry Thurlow, a vocal critic of Sen. John Kerry, that the Democratic presidential candidate lied about coming under gunfire during a mission in Vietnam, according to The Washington Post.

The newly obtained records of Larry Thurlow show that he, like Kerry, won a Bronze Star for the same engagement and that Thurlow's citation said he came under "constant small arms fire," the newspaper reported Thursday.

Thurlow, a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, and a registered Republican, [had] said he is angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities after his return to the United States, especially his claim that U.S. troops committed war crimes with the knowledge of their officers up the chain of command.

...Another lying fanatic hits the wall of truth.





Fox News Report (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129387,00.html)

[MaxPower]

There is no reference to the article on the link you provided or on the Fox News site. They must have removed it in order to remain fair and balanced.


Here is the Washington Post Article

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html

[cardcounter0]

"The newly obtained records of Larry Thurlow show that he, like Kerry, won a Bronze Star for the same engagement and that Thurlow's citation said he came under "constant small arms fire," the newspaper reported Thursday."

Thurlow is correct. He realized that the Viet Cong wouldn't shoot at a fellow communist like Kerry.
/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Time for the cockroaches to start scurrying back under their rocks.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
Thurlow's citation said he came under "constant small arms fire," the newspaper reported Thursday.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, the small arms fire was coming from Kerry /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[vulturesrow]

Thurlow is not the only one involved that night who said there was no enemy fire. As for Thrulow's citation, here is what I took straight out of the newspaper article.
"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which isn't the case,' Thurlow said Wednesday night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. 'My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubts on anbody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."
"Thurlow said he would consider his award 'fraudulent' if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. 'I am here to state that we weren't under fire,' he said."

[adios]

Cyrus you really need to stop using that trashy news site /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

I don't think this will put the issue to rest but maybe it will.

If you look at the document regarding Thurlow's medal in the same encounter that Kerry got his, it clearly states that those guys were under enemy fire. In the article Thurlow claims that he thought he got the medal for coming to the rescue of the boat that got mined:

"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

To me Thurlow's stance seems kind of weak in that he would probably have known what was written in the report recommending him for the medal but I really don't know for sure.


Records Counter a Critic of Kerry (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html)
Records Counter a Critic of Kerry
Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire

By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 19, 2004; Page A01

Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.



Larry Thurlow in an anti-John Kerry ad. Thurlow said he would consider his own Bronze Star "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. (AP)

But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

As one of five Swift boat skippers who led the raid up the Bay Hap River, Thurlow was a direct participant in the disputed events. He is also a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans dismayed by Kerry's subsequent antiwar activities, which has aired a controversial television advertisement attacking his war record.

In interviews and written reminiscences, Kerry has described how his 50-foot patrol boat came under fire from the banks of the Bay Hap after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. patrol boat. According to Kerry and members of his crew, the firing continued as an injured Kerry leaned over the bow of his ship to rescue a Special Forces officer who was blown overboard in a second explosion.

Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He described Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally fabricated."

"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of Kerry's fellow boat commanders.

A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units in the flotilla also came under fire.

"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other anti-Kerry veterans.

The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The Post by officials at the records center yesterday.

Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13, but he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his version of events.

For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.

Thurlow, an oil industry worker and former teacher in Kansas, said he was angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities on his return to the United States and particularly Kerry's claim before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that U.S. troops in Vietnam had committed war crimes "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

" 'Upset' is too mild a word," said Thurlow, a registered Republican, of his reaction to Kerry then. "He did it strictly for his own personal political gain, and it directly affected every single one of us as we were trying to put our lives together."

Larry Thurlow in an anti-John Kerry ad. Thurlow said he would consider his own Bronze Star "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. (AP)

Two other Swift boat skippers who were direct participants in the March 13, 1969, mine explosion on the Bay Hap, Jack Chenoweth and Richard Pees, have said they do not remember coming under "enemy fire." A fourth commander, Don Droz, who was one of Kerry's closest friends in Vietnam, was killed in action a month later.

The incident featured prominently in an anti-Kerry television ad produced by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth earlier this month. "John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star," says Van Odell, a gunner on PCF-23, one of the boats that came to the rescue of the stricken boat. "I know. I was there."

The Bronze Star controversy is also a major focus of an anti-Kerry book by John E. O'Neill, "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry," which will hit No. 2 on The Post's bestseller list this weekend. The book accuses Kerry of "fleeing the scene" and lying repeatedly about his role.

Members of Kerry's crew have come to his defense, as has Rassmann, the Special Forces officer whom he fished from the river. Rassmann says he has vivid memories of being fired at from both banks after he fell into the river and as Kerry came to his rescue. The two had an emotional reunion on the eve of the Iowa Democratic caucuses in January, an event that some political analysts believe helped swing votes to Kerry at a crucial time.

The Bronze Star recommendations for both Kerry and Thurlow were signed by Lt. Cmdr. George M. Elliott, who received reports on the incident from his base in the Gulf of Thailand. Elliott is a supporter of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and has questioned Kerry's actions in Vietnam. But he has refused repeated requests for an interview after issuing conflicting statements to the Boston Globe about whether Kerry deserved a Silver Star. He was unreachable last night.

Money has poured into Swift Boat Veterans for Truth since the group launched its television advertisement attacking Kerry earlier this month. According to O'Neill, the group has received more than $450,000 over the past two weeks, mainly in small contributions. The Dallas Morning News reported yesterday that the organization has also received two $100,000 checks from Houston home builder Bob Perry, who backed George W. Bush's campaigns for Texas governor and for president.

Bush campaign officials have said they have no connection to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which is not permitted to coordinate its activities with a presidential campaign under federal election law.

[Stu Pidasso]

From the article

Two other Swift boat skippers who were direct participants in the March 13, 1969, mine explosion on the Bay Hap, Jack Chenoweth and Richard Pees, have said they do not remember coming under "enemy fire."

Nothing new here Cyrus. Eyewitness accounts still back up Thurlow. I'm sure Algers could explain it to you that eyewitness accounts are usually deemed the more credible.

[ QUOTE ]
...Another lying fanatic hits the wall of truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be so hard on yourself. You're just being a good partizan.

Stu

[cardcounter0]

So a bunch of boats are on the water. One of the boats gets in trouble. This guy's boat turns around goes back up stream and assists the boat in trouble. For this he thinks he got a Bronze Star? Wooooo! Does he think you get Bronze Stars for holding people's hands when they cross the street too?

Doesn't it make more sense that a Bronze Star would be awarded to someone turning around and going back upstream 'rescuing' the other boat, ALL WHILE UNDER HEAVY ENEMY FIRE? That is more of a Bronze Star act, isn't it?

And do they just throw you the medal? Isn't it accompanied by a certificate or citation telling you specifically what it is for? Wouldn't he have seen the reports and recomendations with the words 'enemy fire' in them?

Memory sounds mighty selective for this guy, can we believe his other recollections of Kerry?

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
So a bunch of boats are on the water. One of the boats gets in trouble. This guy's boat turns around goes back up stream and assists the boat in trouble. For this he thinks he got a Bronze Star? Wooooo! Does he think you get Bronze Stars for holding people's hands when they cross the street too?

Doesn't it make more sense that a Bronze Star would be awarded to someone turning around and going back upstream 'rescuing' the other boat, ALL WHILE UNDER HEAVY ENEMY FIRE? That is more of a Bronze Star act, isn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the general criteria for winning a Bronze Star?

[ QUOTE ]
And do they just throw you the medal? Isn't it accompanied by a certificate or citation telling you specifically what it is for?

[/ QUOTE ]

So ????


[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't he have seen the reports and recomendations with the words 'enemy fire' in them?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I asked the same question more or less. Perhaps your knowledgeable about how the military proceeds in these manners but I doubt it.

[ QUOTE ]
Memory sounds mighty selective for this guy, can we believe his other recollections of Kerry?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not the only one making the allegations to be fair. Not that you would bother to concern yourself with fairness.

[ChromePony]

Ive gotta say that I find it humorous that everyone (deomocrats republicans the media...) is making such a big deal over whether or not Kerry fully deserves some of the medals he recieved. I haven't been following too closely but I saw a doctor on the news the other day claim the the piece of metal he removed from Kerry's arm was only about 2cm in length and therefore he is not worthy of the honor.

It seems that lots of people are missing key points here:

A. Kerry fought in Vietnam which is a hell of a lot more than you can say for Bush and millions of other Americans his age at that time. Medals or no medals, all soldiers risk their lives to fight for the 'interests' of the country, if he didn't actually deserve them, fine, just dont let that take away from the acknowledgment he does deserve.
B. Fighting in a war, while very valliant and brave and patriotic, in my mind does has very little to do with ones ability to actually be president and run the United States.

I've always felt that more empahsis should be given to the issues, and I hate how every election both sides engage in this character bashing which just avoids the issue of who is going to make better decisions for our country. I'm not saying character is unimportant, but more that I just hate how sensationalism in the media in essence chooses our priorities for us.

OK, that is all.

[Cyrus]

Glad you agree that Fox News is trashy. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Seriously, I have made this point about debating before, to MMMMMM, but MMMMMM would not get it. When you support a certain position, it is usually preferable to offer substantiation coming from a source that opposes your position!

In other words, if you support Kerry and want to justify something about him, you might want to prefer Fox over other news sites -- because Fox is anti-Kerry! (It works, of course, the other way for Bush supporters.)

And that is all there is to it.

[MMMMMM]

Yes Cyrus but if you are just providing an article that QUOTES someone, then any major news outlet ought to do--unless you think they actually make up quotes and further think they think they won't get called on it. You were picking bones with me over source about an article that focused on quoting Hastert but you had no reason whatsoever to suppose that they were MAKING UP quotes by Hastert. And of course those quotes turned out to be confirmed by another source and by your beloved Post as well.

And that is all there is to it.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
A. Kerry fought in Vietnam which is a hell of a lot more than you can say for Bush and millions of other Americans his age at that time.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's amazing to me that we have a war that was based on a flawed notion (the domino theory), a war where the U.S. used carpet bombing to bomb innocent civilians, a war where agent Orange was used that caused cancer in it's own soldiers, a war that had no effective strategy to actually win it, a war where draftees were employed and it is duely noted that poorer citizens didn't have deferments available, a war where napalm was routinely used, a war where we had Mai Lai and a war where the U.S. government continuously lied to it's citizens about and people today say that those who had problems with that war were somehow not honorable or shirked their duty. I have already conceded that Bush actions where probably based on self interest more than moral objections to such a war. But please, people that had real problems with that war should not be disparaged IMO. Honestly I can say quite a lot about people who had problems with that war.

[ QUOTE ]
Medals or no medals, all soldiers risk their lives to fight for the 'interests' of the country, if he didn't actually deserve them, fine, just dont let that take away from the acknowledgment he does deserve.

[/ QUOTE ]

I maintain that the situation in 1966 when Kerry joined was much different than 1968 and I'd bet that Kerry in 1968 would have had many problems serving and participating in that war given the situation at the time. And that's NOT A KNOCK Kerry. I think people forget what those times were like or didn't live through them.

[ QUOTE ]
B. Fighting in a war, while very valliant and brave and patriotic, in my mind does has very little to do with ones ability to actually be president and run the United States.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that it doesn't have much to do with being president but that's what Kerry is selling.

[ QUOTE ]
I've always felt that more empahsis should be given to the issues, and I hate how every election both sides engage in this character bashing which just avoids the issue of who is going to make better decisions for our country. I'm not saying character is unimportant, but more that I just hate how sensationalism in the media in essence chooses our priorities for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate it to.

[cardcounter0]

Have you gotten a lot smarter recently? I have to agree with everything in your post. 1968-1969 Those were some strange times.

[Cyrus]

...You still don't get it.

[MMMMMM]

I get it, Cyrus. I get the point that a contrary-minded source is best used to bolster one's own points.

What YOU apparently don't get, or think is unimportant, is that you had no real basis for scoffing at that report of Hastert's quotes; that there was absolutely no reason to doubt that Hastert had said those things.

Just wondering, do you ever admit you were wrong or out of line?

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other anti-Kerry veterans.

[/ QUOTE ]
I read the whole article and this seems the most ridiculous thing in it. He was worried about releasing the records because he thought the Kerry campaign would discredit him??? It seems to me he was worried because he knew what the report said, and that was the opposite of what he has been saying.

[cardcounter0]

Yes. Like I said in my "Doesn't make sense" post, he did have a citation with the medal. Want to wager that it contains the words "under enemy fire" in it? Amazing how far these people will let blind hatred take them, isn't it?

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. Like I said in my "Doesn't make sense" post, he did have a citation with the medal. Want to wager that it contains the words "under enemy fire" in it? Amazing how far these people will let blind hatred take them, isn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

This shows how little non-war-era layman understand about medals, citations and other military protocol .


Jimbo

My New Sig Line: i<font color="red">F</font> yo<font color="red">U</font> <font color="red">C</font>ee <font color="red">K</font>erry run (and vote) the other way!

[Cyrus]

"This shows how little non-war-era layman [sic] understand about medals, citations and other military protocol."

Tell me, is there a chance that Thurlow will return his Bronze Star ? I mean, he got it through the same documentation that he now, in his GOP-infested rage, denounces as false! Either both he and Kerry deserve 'em or neither of 'em deserve 'em.

I don't put it past Thurlow pulling a Samson, considering his frame of mind...

"My New Sig Line: iF yoU Cee Kerry run (and vote) the other way!"

Me too, I'm glad you live in Tulsa. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[adios]

Since I know Cyrus is always interested in fair and balanced coverage of a story, here's a link to the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth response to the Washington Post story. My understanding of the process for awarding medals is that someone has to "champion" the medal candidate ie someone has to write and submit a report recommending the candidate. Typically this is not done by the medal candidate themselves. Who championed Kerry and Thurlow? Was it Kerry? So far nobody has come forward and stated that they sponsored Kerry for the medal that I know of. If it's Kerry himself that is revealing in and of itself. Thurlow seems to indicate that it was Kerry who nominated himself for a medal. Since nobody has come forward to clear this up it appears that it may very well have been Kerry who promoted himself for the medal with his report. Kerry also refuses to sign a release for his military medical records that would indicate the nature of his injuries for which he won Purple Hearts. The Swift Boat Veterans group also claims that there were no bullet holes in any boats found and that there certainly would have been if they came under enemy fire. Remember Thurlow won a medal just like Kerry did in the same action. Thurlow deserves the same respect for his service as Kerry does for his yet Cyrus and company insinuate that Kerry is a war hero while Thurlow is lying, low life, sack of sh*t. Developing .... /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Statement By Swift Boat Veterans for Truth Member Larry Thurlow (http://www.swiftvets.com/)

Statement By Swift Boat Veterans for Truth Member Larry Thurlow

I am convinced that the language used in my citation for a Bronze Star was language taken directly from John Kerry's report which falsely described the action on the Bay Hap River as action that saw small arms fire and automatic weapons fire from both banks of the river.

To this day, I can say without a doubt in my mind, along with other accounts from my shipmates-there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day.

I submitted no paperwork for a medal nor did I file an after action report describing the incident. To my knowledge, John Kerry was the only officer who filed a report describing his version of the incidents that occurred on the river that day.

It was not until I had left the Navy-approximately three months after I left the service-that I was notified that I was to receive a citation for my actions on that day.

I believed then as I believe now that I received my Bronze Star for my efforts to rescue the injured crewmen from swift boat number three and to conduct damage control to prevent that boat from sinking. My boat and several other swift boats went to the aid of our fellow swift boat sailors whose craft was adrift and taking on water. We provided immediate rescue and damage control to prevent boat three from sinking and to offer immediate protection and comfort to the injured crew.

After the mine exploded, leaving swift boat three dead in the water, John Kerry's boat, which was on the opposite side of the river, fled the scene. US Army Special Forces officer Jim Rassmann, who was on Kerry's boat at the time, fell off the boat and into the water. Kerry's boat returned several minutes later-under no hail of enemy gunfire-to retrieve Rassmann from the river only seconds before another boat was going to pick him up.

Kerry campaign spokespersons have conflicting accounts of this incident-the latest one being that Kerry's boat did leave but only briefly and returned under withering enemy fire to rescue Mr. Rassmann. However, none of the other boats on the river that day reported enemy fire nor was anyone wounded by small arms action. The only damage on that day was done to boat three-a result of the underwater mine. None of the other swift boats received damage from enemy gunfire.

And in a new development, Kerry campaign officials are now finally acknowledging that while Kerry's boat left the scene, none of the other boats on the river ever left the damaged swift boat. This is a direct contradiction to previous accounts made by Jim Rassmann in the Oregonian newspaper and a direct contradiction to the "No Man Left Behind" theme during the Democratic National Convention.

These ever changing accounts of the Bay Hap River incident by Kerry campaign officials leave me asking one question. If no one ever left the scene of the Bay Hap River incident, how could anyone be left behind?

Statement by Navy Veteran Van Odell, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth

in Rebuttal to Michael Dobbs, Washington Post, August 19, 2004

A courageous, soft spoken man of the Midwest, Larry Thurlow has a heart bigger than the great plains and a commitment to truth and honesty that is boundless. He is under attack, because John Kerry is feeling the heat of truth at the hands of this honest man and others like him.

The Kerry Campaign is attacking the truthfulness of this man and the Bronze Star he so richly deserves for his actions on March 13, 1969. I was there. I saw what happened.

The mine's detonation lifted PCF-3 completely out of the water just yards ahead of me. All boats commenced suppression fire in case enemy small arms fire ensued. None did.

All boats came to the aid of PCF-3, except one: John Kerry's boat. Kerry fled.

Larry Thurlow piloted his boat straight toward the mine-damaged PCF-3 from which thick, black smoke billowed. He jumped aboard and personally led damage control operations that saved the boat and rescue operations that saved the lives of badly wounded men. Larry's leadership was in the highest traditions of the naval service. His leadership allowed the other men and boats of the mission to exit the river safely. This single act of meritorious service -- the chief requirement of the Bronze Star -- should be honored, not ridiculed, by the Kerry campaign and its allies in the mainstream media.

To reiterate, only one enemy weapon was deployed that day -- the command-detonated submerged mine that disabled PCF-3. Larry Thurlow's citation contained references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire," because that was the language chosen by John Kerry who penned the spot report on the action that day. There was no "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" received that day. John Kerry's report was fiction -- a hoax on the entire chain of command. Larry Thurlow's heroism and meritorious service, however, is real.

To me Larry is one of the heroes of our country. He is a man who served his country when called and who returned home to be a productive citizen. Larry and men like him are the strong backbone of our society. I am proud to have served with him.

[elwoodblues]

Is there anything indicating that it was Kerry who supported himself for a medal or is it just the lack of anyone else who has come forward? If it is just the lack of anyone stepping forward, that's pretty weak.