20/40 two laydowns

[Nate tha' Great]

20/40 live in East Chicago. A loose and pretty aggressive player limps in EP. Folded around to my button where I have 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif. I see that the SB is getting ready to muck rather than complete and decide to raise. SB and BB fold, EP calls.

Flop A98 with two hearts. He checks, I bet, he calls.

Turn is an offsuit J. He checks, I bet, he raises, I call.

River 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif he bets and I fold.

Also 20/40, been must-moved to the main table. Game is very loose with mixed levels of aggression. The one player I respect a little bit is not involved in the hand.

Four players limp and I complete with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif in the SB. BB knocks and six see the flop:

AQ8 rainbow with no spades.

I check, BB checks, and the first limper bets. Next three limpers call. The BB acts out of turn and calls. I fold.

[pistol78]

How does the little (hindu i think) guy with the sunglasses play?

[SpaceAce]

The fold in hand #2 looks good to me. That's a lot of people to play top pair no kicker against.

That eight in hand #1 sucked but you described your opponent as "loose and pretty aggressive". I take it your definition of "pretty aggressive" does not include a high probability that he is just overplaying a Jack or trying to bluff you out with something less than a Jack. Against a player I consider loose-aggressive, I am reluctant to lay this down getting >8:1 on the river. I guess the river play all hinges on how a "pretty aggressive" player behaves in your game.

SpaceAce

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is an offsuit J. He checks, I bet, he raises, I call.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did you consider 3-betting the turn and checking the river? Or if he 4-bets call him down unless the board counterfeit you like it did?

[ QUOTE ]
I check, BB checks, and the first limper bets. Next three limpers call. The BB acts out of turn and calls. I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised getting 11:1 implied and "closing the action" with BB calling out of turn you didn't at least call to see if you could turn a 2. Even with the numerous counterfeit opportunites by the river, flush draws are not present. There are some hazards of straights draws. Hmmmm...

I'd like to hear your rationale for not peeling one off to see the turn on this one.

Garland

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Nate,

Hand #1 with @ 8.5 BB's in the pot against a LAG, I call for one more bet. Too often I see this type of player making these plays with small pairs.

Hand #2 looks fine.

[Senor Choppy]

Hand 1 seems like it might be a semi-bluff, but even if it is, you might be outkicked against a better jack. I like the river fold.

Hand 2 you can't call down here in an unraised pot, and you aren't getting enough to try and spike a two. Good fold.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
That eight in hand #1 sucked but you described your opponent as "loose and pretty aggressive". I take it your definition of "pretty aggressive" does not include a high probability that he is just overplaying a Jack or trying to bluff you out with something less than a Jack. Against a player I consider loose-aggressive, I am reluctant to lay this down getting >8:1 on the river. I guess the river play all hinges on how a "pretty aggressive" player behaves in your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

My opponent was definitely a LAG in the context of the game but still B&M LAGs have nothing on Party Poker LAGs. Could he have made this play with something like JT, which picked up an OESD on the turn to go with his pair? Yes, I think this opponent might be capable of something like that. I just didn't think he'd have a hand like that sufficiently often to justify my calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

[1800GAMBLER]

In hand 1, if you think he will only checkraise the turn with 2 pair and not single aces - which it looks like since you didn't 3 bet - i think you should call the river in the hopes of a split. Roughly 1 in 4 times you'll split, meaning you need 8:1 on your river call, which you maybe getting i haven't worked out pot size. This is given you think he'll play 9J UTG yet is unlikely to play 89. It also matters on the suits of each card on the flop for the combinations of each possible hand.

If you include draws you almost surely should call down even if he'll also c/r the turn with A2. More so you should have def. 3 bet the turn in that case. Yet i'm betting you say he'll only c/r the turn with two pairs and draws hence your play making this a pointless thread.

Hand 2 should bring a fun arguement.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised getting 11:1 implied and "closing the action" with BB calling out of turn you didn't at least call to see if you could turn a 2. Even with the numerous counterfeit opportunites by the river, flush draws are not present. There are some hazards of straights draws. Hmmmm...

I'd like to hear your rationale for not peeling one off to see the turn on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

The idea was basically that:

1) I thought that I needed to improve to have the best hand;
2) I barely had odds to catch a 2, but pretty often it would not give me the best hand at showdown;
3) I did not have a good plan for the turn if I did not improve.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
In hand 1, if you think he will only checkraise the turn with 2 pair and not single aces - which it looks like since you didn't 3 bet - i think you should call the river in the hopes of a split.

[/ QUOTE ]

This opponent was definitely aggro enough to check-raise the turn with a pair of aces; in fact I thought that was a pretty likely holding. But Ax pulled ahead of me on the river.

I did think about 3-betting the turn, but a 4-bet would make me vomit, so I didn't.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
How does the little (hindu i think) guy with the sunglasses play?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm thinking of the same person, the guy is pretty loose aggressive, but nevertheless a far better player than average for this game (it's a very good game, really). Still, this was just my third session out there, so most of my opponent reads are pretty sketchy.

[1800GAMBLER]

Regardless of that 4 betting making you vomit this ratio of paying off vs 4 betting makes it so you should 3 bet, linky (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=plnlpoker&Number=929630&Fo rum=f5&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=929480&Se arch=true&where=bodysub&Name=2961&daterange=1&newe rval=1&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=# Post929630).

"don't bet if a raise will make you sick and you expect to be raised at least as often as you will be paid off by a worse hand".

[OrangeHeat]

Hand 2 knowing your closing the action - I would tempted to peel one off and try for a 2. If you do - your in a good spot to get alot of money in on the turn with the limpers between the bettor and yourself.

Orange

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
you might be outkicked against a better jack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate's jack is really good, because it's matched with a nine, giving him a higher second pair than the 8s on the board. The only jacks he's behind are AJ and J8. Of course, if his opponent has either of those hands, the jack part of it really doesn't enter into it at all.

-McGee

[ChicagoTroy]

Hand 1, I'd have called him down, unless a fourth heart hit the river and you'd caught a double-check tell. I'd also be tempted to 3 bet the type of player you describe in that game. QJ with a heart seems a likely holding.

Hand 2, the pot would have to be a little bigger before I'd fight over it. You may have the best hand and and if not, his kicker may get counterfitted.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
Could he have made this play with something like JT, which picked up an OESD on the turn to go with his pair? Yes, I think this opponent might be capable of something like that. I just didn't think he'd have a hand like that sufficiently often to justify my calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I edited it out before posting but I had initially asked about exactly that sort of thing; would he make a play on you with a pair that picked up a straight draw or something along those lines. If you think yes, but not often enough, then the fold is good.

SpaceAce

[Senor Choppy]

Wow, what an amazingly bad read of the board on my part. Even without the 9 he's still chopping with any other jack.

I'm liking this fold a lot less after having gotten a few hours sleep :/

[elindauer]

Hand 1: I'm surprised you don't 3-bet the turn. Given that you didn't, that river is the worst card in the deck. You can now beat your opponent only if he was stone cold bluffing on every street. That's not likely here. Good fold.

Hand 2:

I'm not a big fan of folding top pair for one bet on the flop, although this is a reasonable spot to do it. You're almost getting odds to draw for a 2 though, I'd almost certainly take one off and see what the turn action looks like. If the turn is a brick, make another tough decision then. I've got no problem with a fold though, I think it's close. A single spade would be enough to make it a clear call in my mind.

Good luck.
Eric

[elindauer]

Like so many others, I couldn't have misread the board any worse in hand 1. I convinced myself that you were actually LOSING to JT, which is way wrong. I now dislike the fold. Make the crying call.

my 2 cents.
Eric

[Drscheist]

Great folds. Though I like 3 bet in hand 1. I think you're ahead on turn but surely fried by the river. I don't call river once he sees you calling his c/r and firing when board pairs, 3rd Heart comes out. Always tough to fold 3 pair though. Hand 2-Money better spent elsewhere. Nice hands.