Those dreaded jacks

[granny50]

Late stages of a mult-table tournament. You find JJ two off the button. Blinds are 400/800. You have 6400. Everyone folds to you. Your action?

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Late stages of a mult-table tournament. You find JJ two off the button. Blinds are 400/800. You have 6400. Everyone folds to you. Your action?

[/ QUOTE ]

All-in. It's not even remotely close.

[Scooterdoo]

Usually all-in, don't want any callers, but would love to get called by TT or lower. I'll live with it if I get called by over-cards (better if it's AT though), and I'll just have to deal with QQ, KK or AA.

Another strategy which I might do some time is limp. If I get raised by the blinds I re-raise all-in, unless it's a really large raise and they I seriously consider folding. If the flop comes favorable to me I get aggressive, if there are overcards and the blinds bet it aggressively I probably give up the hand.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Another strategy which I might do some time is limp. If I get raised by the blinds I re-raise all-in, unless it's a really large raise and they I seriously consider folding. If the flop comes favorable to me I get aggressive, if there are overcards and the blinds bet it aggressively I probably give up the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You consider folding pocket jacks with 8x the BB when all the info you have is someone raised a limper?

If you want to limp them, well, fine, but don't come whining to me when K5 checks his BB and hits a K on the flop.

What if you limp and there is an A or a K on the flop? Do you just check/fold? With the 4th best preflop hand and 8x the BB limping with a check-fold plan is...ummm....where are those weak-tight police?

[fnurt]

I don't think it would be unreasonable to raise 3xBB, hoping for someone to put you on a steal and come over the top. With only 8xBB I'm generally happy to gamble a little in order to double up, and JJ is not a hand that is vulnerable to coinflips like, say, 99.

There are only 3 hands that dominate you; obviously, you can't do anything about those. Likewise, AK is not folding here, and AQ is probably not folding to a raise from 2 off the button. If KQ is out there, you probably would have rather he folded, but it's hardly a disaster.

The real danger is that you might get flat called by a hand like QTs and have a queen flop. But if he calls your raise, he might have called the all-in anyway. Bottom line is that with only 8xBB in my stack I think I am happy to have JJ against QT, even though I "might" lose.

[Scooterdoo]

I said I would usually push. I'm just mentioning a strategy I might try every once in a while with a JJ type hand -- I should have mentioned this, but I would usually only do this if one of the blinds is very aggressive and I feel there is a likely chance one of them will raise my limp around 2-3x, some people do this all the time. So basically I would be soliciting a raise with the goal of then spanking the raiser. Now the danger as you point out is if it's not raise I now have no idea if I'm in the lead based on the flop so I'll have to be very careful. When seeing a flop in position with a hand like JJ and no reads I'll try to get a read based on the flop play. If the blind bets big at the flop and there are overcards I'll have to consider folding. I may raise to see where I stand, or if it's checked to me I'll usually bet to see how much my opponent likes his/her hand.

* Hey, as you can tell from my Bike Club post I certainly make mistakes all the time <g>, so I'm not proposing that people take what I do as gospel! Just trying to get better.

[TheJackal]

I think it depends on if you are an average stack or above average. I would think that if you are the first one in the pot, you can make a standard raise of 3-4x BB and fold if the blinds are tight and you know at best you are 50/50 to overcards. I don't like playing jacks for all my chips unless I am short stacked. A little off topic here but I want to illustrate a point. In the $10 rebuy Pstars tourney on Monday, we were close to the 3rd hour and I find pocket kings in MP. I get an EP raiser, and I put him on about 4 hands (AK, AQ, JJ, QQ), and decide a re-raise is in order, because if the flop is favorable I can move in and pick up a nice pot. He made it 1600 to go, I raise to 4000, I make this move because if he doesn't call, I still pick up the blinds plus 1600, and it's always better to win a small pot than lose a big one. Anyways he calls the raise and flop comes rags with 2 hearts, and he immediately bets into me (4k I believe). At this point I have about 10k to his about 12k and there is about 10k in the pot. I put him on either QQ JJ or a flush draw. But the flush draw seemed more likely because if he put me on a high pair, he would be sending a message with his bet that he isn't afraid of a high pair. Now I can either fold the best hand and still have 10k (aver about 14k) or my other option which is to move in being at best a 2:1 favorite (my thinking at the time). Well no one wins poker tournaments by playing like a coward and giving up an edge so I move in. He calls and turns over AQ of hearts. Great all-in bet I think here, I'm 57/43 to win this pot, and needless to say a heart comes on the turn and I am out of the tournament. Just like with jacks, if you are average or above average in chips, it is better to give up value in order to survive to fight another day. I don't like how I play the hand anyways, yes I was 2:1 before the flop, but given the fact that it would be hard to laydown my hand if my opponent connected on the flop, I could have played the hand for a small pot instead of a large one, and I feel the same way about jacks.

[fnurt]

If you really put him on a flush draw you could just flat call the flop and push on the turn if the flush card doesn't come. You were a favorite on the flop incidentally, not a dog.

As for the original post, it would definitely be silly to raise half your stack and then fold in the name of money management.

[patrick dicaprio]

push without a second thought. that is a lot of chips in the middle to take down and if they have a better hand thems the breaks. you might even be called by 88 or 99 or TT.

Pat

[durron597]

What do you do if the BB stop and goes you with one or more overcards? Always call?

[donny5k]

You'd most definitely get called if someone had tens unless it was a very tight table.

[granny50]

Well, I pushed here and I definitely thought I was going to get called since I had just pushed with 22 earlier and it was folded around. The BB called showed AA and I was down to a 1400 in chips. Still managed to finish in the money tho /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SossMan]

Sometimes there is too much overanalysis on this board.
Push, and its not even close to being close.

[Synth]

[ QUOTE ]
The real danger is that you might get flat called by a hand like QTs and have a queen flop. But if he calls your raise, he might have called the all-in anyway. Bottom line is that with only 8xBB in my stack I think I am happy to have JJ against QT, even though I "might" lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why you move all-in pre-flop.

If there was a player holding QTs, the gamble would be alot greater for him to call an all-in then it would a raise (not to mention the other factor of having 8BB's left!!).

- Synth

[Bernas]

Definite push. DOn't even consider limping or raising anything except all in.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it depends on if you are an average stack or above average. I would think that if you are the first one in the pot, you can make a standard raise of 3-4x BB and fold if the blinds are tight and you know at best you are 50/50 to overcards. I don't like playing jacks for all my chips unless I am short stacked.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have 8x the BB. You are short stacked. JJ is the 4th best hand you can get. I am thrilled to play it for all my chips at this point. I'm pushing 2 off the button with much worse hands, and I rather hope this is the one that gets called.

[GoldenHorde]

Silly question unless someone to my left flashes me Queens, Kings or Aces I push every time. You are short stacked and have the 4th best starting hand possible and one thats gonna dominate quite a few hands that might call you here.

Limping is a great way to watch an overcard flop and have no idea where you are and such a huge wasted oppurtunity to pick up the blinds which are significant.

[trillig]

If first in, easy push....

Last night I went AI in front of a pair of jacks, I had him covered, he laid it down... and survived into the money, good move, I had big slick.... it's a push hand but a hard AI call hand if facing elimination just before the $, we were down to final 14, paying 11.... he survived to 9th.

Chances are, with just 4 behind you, you are ahead, no fear baby, PUSH IT!

I also went AI later with 22 in SB against just BB, and 33, got no callers, blinds were 10k/20k, and it was definitely crunch time at final 7.

-Bri