Flaw in Sam Farha's game

[Walter Pullis]

Sam Farha plays NLHE as if he was playing pot-limit Omaha. Of course in Omaha you want to see a lot of flops, but I don't think this works in NLHE.
I'm amazed he finished second in last year's main event.
Interesting that none of the analysts point this out. I guess they don't want to criticize anyone's play

[unfrgvn]

I think he and Daniel N. both felt like they could outplay their opponets post flop, so they wanted in a lot of hands. Based on what was shown, I think both of them over did it. The other problem was most of the time the other players weren't flopping nothing, they had a least a piece of it which made it tough to move them off their hands.

[scotnt73]

if you are that good post flop you can play that many hands. its not my style but im also no that good post flop /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ZootMurph]

I think Farha was trying too hard to let the amateurs make mistakes by calling along, and Negreanu was trying too hard to bully people. Especially on the first day, you have to just play the stack-building game.

[J.R.]

Of course in Omaha you want to see a lot of flops, but I don't think this works in NLHE.

Not when the NLHE is played with deep stacks and you play well postflop or your opponents do not play well postflop.

[JalKelly]

In last year's coverage Norman Chad did comment quite a bit on how many hand's Farha played. I think one fo the quotes was that he would play a hand even if he was going to the bathroom.

[Moovyz]

I've been playing NLHE for a long time. It's a common trait among strong players to play many hands early to build a stack that'll get you through the middle rounds during a dry spell. Most pots are multi-way and offer tremendous odds. Later, things tighten up and you're lucky to get even money against stronger players.

Almost every event I've won, or seen strong players win, this was the way in the early rounds.

As I said in the other thread, Sam plays alot of hands anyway, but that part was ok. I think he lacked the concentration of last year due to his "celebrity" status.

[Cornbread Maxwell]

It is unclear what exactly defines a 'deep stack' in tournament poker. From my perspective, the only time where the stacks are that deep in the WSOP is at the beginning, when blinds are 25/50 and each player has 10,000 in chips (200 BBs). After the first two hours, the blinds go up to 50/100 and the stacks are no longer deep enough to be playing a ton of flops with marginal hands, unless you have significantly increased the size of your stack during the first level.

The problem with playing marginal hands early on, especially facing a raise, is if you miss a ton of flops in a row and whittle your stack down to maybe 7000-8000. Now what happens if you get a huge hand and double up, you will only have 14000-16000 in chips. If you had waited for the huge hand and not played so many weak hands to begin with, you could be looking at 18000-20000 in chips.

Once you have enough to cover most of the table, now you can begin playing marginal hands, because you will have most players covered anyway, and if you do get in a situation where all of your chips are in the pot, you will most likely not be risking your tournament life on the hand, unless of course the other player happens to have you covered.

My general strategy in the WSOP would be to play tight early and play for hands that can easily make the nuts, and NOT make loose cals with KQo, Q2s, A5s etc. If, by some good fortune, I were able to double up early, then I would loosen up my game a bit.

I thought Negreanu played terribly, at least during the hands that were shown.

[Sundevils21]

nobodys game is completely flawless. Sam's approach doesn't always work. Niether does negreanu's, brunson's, ivey's, lederer's, harrington's...ect

[cornell2005]

[ QUOTE ]
Sam Farha plays NLHE as if he was playing pot-limit Omaha. Of course in Omaha you want to see a lot of flops, but I don't think this works in NLHE.
I'm amazed he finished second in last year's main event.
Interesting that none of the analysts point this out. I guess they don't want to criticize anyone's play

[/ QUOTE ]

im willing to bet 100:1 you dont play nlhe at a high or medium level. this post is insane. no offense.

[luckycharms]

Do you really think you found (with 10 posts) a flaw in the game of a multi-million dollar pro poker player?

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
but I don't think this works in NLHE.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're wrong.

Also, it should be pointed out that only a small minority of the hands were shown. Farha wasn't calling reraises with 73s. He picked his spots to play "looser than normal".

[PokerNeal]

Excellent post!

One addition.

I used to be super tight during the early rounds and wait for a premium hand. Sometimes they never come and you see the board pass you by showing every now and then a hand you could have won. Of course, you also see several hands you could have lost. Therefore, I made a compromise. I will play a semi-premium hand from the button or one minus button if the action has been slow. If I am one minus the button I will even make a raise to force the button to fold his hand. Let me illustrate a point where a play from a late/last position shows you just how strong your hand is as opposed to having played the same hand from the early position:

You have A-J in early position. You go fishing. There is a raise behind you for about 3X of your bet. You match it and you see this flop. A Q 3. What to do? Should you start our aggressive and hope that your opponent has a lower kicker? Whereas from the late position your opponent will help define his hand because he has to act first. A significant advantage to you.

[Daliman]

I think he plays alot looser than normal for 2 reasons, which I believe are inherent in most top level pros when it comes to big buyin tourneys;

1. He feels he can outplay flop on.
2. THe $$$$ really doesn't mena that much to him.

I know #2 sound s pretty stupid, but when you hear about some of these top guys playing in 30k-60k headsup matches and at least one top player playing 100k-200k heads up during the WSOP, not only is a 10k buyin not that big a deal, even winning the five million dollars would not constitue more than a pretty good day for some of these guys. Believe it when you hear these guys say the title means MUCH more to them than the $$$. I personally feel that most of the reason many of the top cash game players such as Reese, Forrest, and Lederer play tournaments is for the publicity, not the money, although i do feel the competition is part of it. Much of the time, players such as Farha know that loose aggressive play early means one of two things, usually; they build a big stack, or they get KO'd, which means they can move over to the much more profitable side games.
I also think the fact that Farha plays mainly Omaha plays a big role. His experience and bankroll allow him to not concern himself too much with 10k. If he were playing 5k-10k blinds NL cash holdem with a 5 million dollar minimum buyin, i an assure you, he'd play tighter.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
I know #2 sound s pretty stupid, but when you hear about some of these top guys playing in 30k-60k headsup matches and at least one top player playing 100k-200k heads up during the WSOP, not only is a 10k buyin not that big a deal, even winning the five million dollars would not constitue more than a pretty good day for some of these guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a bit stupid.

[MicroBob]

i thought this thread might have been about his 66 hand on board of 443 where he let the guy with K8 catch up to him.

if sam really wants to be aggressive this would be a good time. he didn't think the opponent had a 4 and i suspect he thought the opponent didn't have a higher pair either.

letting his opponent catch up on the end with an 8 was kind of ugly i thought.

sam told the guy that he better stick with playing online.
i was thinking 'well sam...the pot could have been yours if you weren't so determined to let the guy stick around'.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

I think Sam wanted to let the K8 dude keep bluffing at him as he was confident that he was ahead the whole way, though raising the turn would have probably been a good idea, but Sam did get unlucky with that river.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know #2 sound s pretty stupid, but when you hear about some of these top guys playing in 30k-60k headsup matches and at least one top player playing 100k-200k heads up during the WSOP, not only is a 10k buyin not that big a deal, even winning the five million dollars would not constitue more than a pretty good day for some of these guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a bit stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

No...it's plenty stupid! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[cardcounter0]

Exactly how much money have you won off of Farha?
I'm sure he would be glad to arrange a heads up match with you.

[Phishy McFish]

Honestly.....the guy took 2nd in the WSOP and makes tons of money in cash games.....do you think you're qualified to call his "loose" play out??

[Mars357]

Farha scares the HELL out of me. I fear that if I ever looked across the table and saw him sitting across from me I'd wet my pants. He looks the classic "old style" Vegas Shark and I love to watch him play because you can see him sizing up his opponents on every hand.

I kept expecting him to jump the table and pummel that loud mouth amateur from Houston.... What a clown

Other pros that scare me....
Devil Fish
Hoyt Corkins
Jesus
Scotty Nguyen

There are more but these are all that come to mind at the moment.

Who would you most hate to see sitting accross the table from you?

[PokerNeal]

Hoyt Corkins. Without a doubt. Cowboy with class and extraordinary guts. He is the man!

[Phishy McFish]

....and the Prof. I think all of them can adjust to anyone's style of play.....even a loose amateur such as myself. Sure, I'd get them to laydown their AQ preflop. Then I would bet into their set of 8s with my AJ on a J high board and they'd break me.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know #2 sound s pretty stupid, but when you hear about some of these top guys playing in 30k-60k headsup matches and at least one top player playing 100k-200k heads up during the WSOP, not only is a 10k buyin not that big a deal, even winning the five million dollars would not constitue more than a pretty good day for some of these guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a bit stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

No...it's plenty stupid! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I guess you just dont get it. Todd Brunson was recently quoted as saying he once won 13.5 million dollars in 2 days once. Now, he plays at about the highest limits around, but I don't think anyone would say no one else ever does or ever has won more. Like Farha said last year, winning the main event would have only gotten him even for the trip. Look, I play at levels that even good players never reach, and I have a hard time comprehending 100K-200K heads up, but 5 million in that game is only 25 big bets. Look, don't get me wrong, if I won 5k winning a big tournnament, i'd be very happy, but considering I've won that much or close in a day on several occasions, it wouldn't be close to life changing. There was at least one top player that lost about 3.5 million in a 30k-60k game who decided to shoot off 1.5 million at a private craps table, so try to envision that when thinking 5 million is a big deal to the top players.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
I kept expecting him to jump the table and pummel that loud mouth amateur from Houston.... What a clown


[/ QUOTE ]

THe lou mouth "amateur" from houston is Jeremy Tinsley, a professional player.

[Mars357]

[ QUOTE ]
The loud mouth "amateur" from houston is Jeremy Tinsley, a professional player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy crap! You're right! I'm not sure what gave me the impression that he was an amatur.

I retract my statement of
[ QUOTE ]
I kept expecting him to jump the table and pummel that loud mouth amateur from Houston.... What a clown

[/ QUOTE ]

and replace it with

I kept expecting him to jump the table and pummel that loud mouth PROFESSIONAL from Houston.... What a clown /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[JARID]

[ QUOTE ]
Other pros that scare me....
Devil Fish
Hoyt Corkins
Jesus
Scotty Nguyen


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Jesus is a good guy but if he tries to do that card flinging thing and one gets away from him it could be ugly.
FWIW that loud mouth did have a final table on the WPT and seemed to play well. Ironically, he didn't say a word in that episode.

-Jarid

[el_grande]

I would have no fear playing Daniel N. First of all, he seems quite friendly, and second of all the guy genuinely mulls over decisions. He seems easy to read- his acting is bad. And I'm not great at reading either.

Farha, Lederer, and Corkins all scare me.

[Raiser]

For some reason Eskimo Clark scares the bejesus out of me.

[warlockjd]

I was lucky enough to start on Sammy's table. He played ~1/3 of his hands, I believe. He hit 3 or 4 flushes early by playing suited connectors, hands that didn't make it to TV.

I don't think they said the amounts but he was trapping on the 66 hand, and the river absolutely cripled his stack. Had no 8 or K come, Sammy would have been a force to reckon with.

Interestingly enough, Farha was the loosest player at the table and Juanda was the second tightest. The Smith fellow (Wild Bill Hickock) was the second loosest, and I (with little tournament experience) was the tightest. Still can't believe I paid off Tinsleys set on nat'l tv /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

One hand that was interesting...Blinds 50/100. Farha makes it 400 to go UTG+2. I make it 1200 with JJ, and everyone folds to him. He looks at me as he calls, and with a big toothy smile says, "So, you want to go out this hand?" I can only describe that moment as absolutely terrifying. Luckily for me, the flop came 9 high, I bet 2000, and he quickly mucked.

[ohgeetee]

lol, awesome.

the way he talks like a badass while the cig hangs out is ominous. i bet your reaction is what made him lay his hand down.

[RicktheRuler]

You would have no fear of playing Danny N. He has a strong case for best all around poker player in the world.

He offered Phil Helmuth $400/hr to play him heads up 400/800...that takes some balls.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have no fear playing Daniel N. First of all, he seems quite friendly, and second of all the guy genuinely mulls over decisions. He seems easy to read- his acting is bad. And I'm not great at reading either.

Farha, Lederer, and Corkins all scare me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a joke.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really think you found (with 10 posts) a flaw in the game of a multi-million dollar pro poker player?

[/ QUOTE ]

because we all know that post count determines the quality of your poker game /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
I was lucky enough to start on Sammy's table. He played ~1/3 of his hands, I believe. He hit 3 or 4 flushes early by playing suited connectors, hands that didn't make it to TV.

I don't think they said the amounts but he was trapping on the 66 hand, and the river absolutely cripled his stack. Had no 8 or K come, Sammy would have been a force to reckon with.

Interestingly enough, Farha was the loosest player at the table and Juanda was the second tightest. The Smith fellow (Wild Bill Hickock) was the second loosest, and I (with little tournament experience) was the tightest. Still can't believe I paid off Tinsleys set on nat'l tv /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

One hand that was interesting...Blinds 50/100. Farha makes it 400 to go UTG+2. I make it 1200 with JJ, and everyone folds to him. He looks at me as he calls, and with a big toothy smile says, "So, you want to go out this hand?" I can only describe that moment as absolutely terrifying. Luckily for me, the flop came 9 high, I bet 2000, and he quickly mucked.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol...awesome story

[Phishy McFish]

Wonder what HIS take of YOU would be?? Seriously, this is the kind of inflated sense of skill that I'm talking about when I say I have a hard time buying what people are selling in regards to their success on this site/forum. How many MTT with $1,000+ buy-ins have you made it to the final table on? Do you make 6 figues playing poker?

"What color is the sky in your world Cliff" (classic Cheers line said by Frasier)

[Walter Pullis]

I was the original poster of this topic, stating that I thought Farha plays NLHE like Omaha. I was amused by the comments that because those of us who don't make millions playing poker cannot have a valid opinion. Well I play low buy-in B&M NLHE tournaments and frequently finish in the money. I think anyone with my background can assess the play of those we see frequently on TV. Besides how do you know that Farha makes(and keeps) millions playing poker? I have always been suspicious of monetary claims from many poker pros.