I Feel Fishy All Over

[fsuplayer]

Is the flop call (three to a st. flush, closing the action) ok, awful or somewhere in between in a multi-way raised pot?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, MP folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: (14.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 20.50 BB

[daryn]

awful.

preflop is fine.

what are you doing calling the flop?

after you call that flop bet, you hit the best turn card possible, and the rest was history.


why did you call the flop? what was the thought process?

[fsuplayer]

why did you call the flop? what was the thought process?

That there were 15 great turn cards for me and I was getting over 8-1. If I hit that turn card, I am at least 5-1 to make my hand, with very nice implied odds if I backdoor it.

I am thinking that closing the action here, this is one of those loose calls you can make without getting hurt much when you miss. Obviously I did not expect that flurry of action on the turn, as these games are generally more passive than that.

I dont see how this is any diffrent than calling with an overcard and a BD fl. draw (or similar weak draws) in a raised pot, although i would rather have the above hand.

[2000Flushes]

15 great cards ???? How on earth do you come up with number ? This how a fish thinks!

If anyone has as much as an ace, or 99-kk there is no single card that puts you ahead .. you're drawing to a draw.

you got lucky, but in the long run you're going to lose $ playing like that.

[SnakeRat]

Say on the turn a 9 of diamonds comes off or a K of hearts.
I wouldn't describe these as great cards especially if 3 bets are gonna go in on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont see how this is any diffrent than calling with an overcard and a BD fl. draw (or similar weak draws) in a raised pot, although i would rather have the above hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the overcard hand you can improve to the winner on the turn. With this you might improve to a draw with only 1 card to come.

Its a marginal call at best.

[BlueBear]

nope, I don't think calling the flop is at all correct here. Say the turn was a 6 or 7 instead of a heart, you may proceed to hit semi-desirable cards on the turn and river and still easily lose a few big bets in this hand here. The "outs" on the flop are not realistic ones and the pot size is simply not big enough to justify such a wild shot.

[Schneids]

Make the pot 4SBs bigger on the flop and I think we're starting to get to ok-land.

While we're on the subject I'm curious if people think any differently of this hand or if they think this flop call is awful too? 2+2er Nemesis is the SB and he's aware I've been making plenty of somewhat light PF raises. MP plays pretty badly all-around.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Schneids is Button with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Schneids raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls, Schneids calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">MP bets</font>, Schneids calls, SB calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">MP bets</font>, Schneids calls, SB folds.

River: (9.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Schneids raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Schneids caps</font>, MP calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP shows 2d Qh (two pair, queens and threes).
Schneids shows 9d Td (flush, queen high).
Outcome: Schneids wins 17.50 BB. </font>

[Matty]

I think you had correct odds and position for your call. If backdoors are 1.5 outs, then you've got 14.7:1.

[naphand]

I think backdoors are 2 outs, if each card is 5:1 on the Turn and River, you have 25:1 or about 2:50, plus you could catch run-run trips enough times to consider this 2 outs I think.

[naphand]

I think backdoors are 2 outs, if each card is 5:1 on the Turn and River, you have 25:1 or about 2:50, plus you could catch run-run trips or (winning) 2-pair enough times to consider this 2 outs I think.

[fyodor]

If you think Schneids' call is ok then fsu's is ok too. fsu is getting 10:1 for his flop call and I think his backdoor stuff adds up to 2 outs which is about 11:1 Add in at least one bet for implied odds and he is just there.

Schneids' backdoor stuff is not quite as good in that he needs specifically a Jack for his backdoor straight while fsu has a 3 card oe. On the other hand Schneids is getting better odds for his call.

[Kaz The Original]

At the very least I hope you said "But they were suited!"

[fsuplayer]

In the end I think its a marginal call, but one thats hard to pass up getting 10-1 while closing the action .

[fsuplayer]

At the very least I hope you said "But they were suited!"

No, no, no....it's sooooted . /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Nemesis]

the 2 backdoor draws are about 1.5 outs each (according to the Bible aka SSHE) So he's got 3 outs total. I think that I would not have made this call, and probably not the one schneids did either. The think i like about schneids better though is that his 2 cards are at least over the bottom 2 flop cards so he may win if he just catches 1 pair. Whereas FSU's cards are only better than bottom pair. I do think that your implied odds are there for a very nice payoff if you do hit. It's marginal in both situations I think, but in the long run I think it is probably -EV

[Matty]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think Schneids' call is ok then fsu's is ok too. fsu is getting 10:1 for his flop call and I think his backdoor stuff adds up to 2 outs which is about 11:1 Add in at least one bet for implied odds and he is just there.

[/ QUOTE ]No, he's getting the same 14.7 to 1 to hit something on the turn that Schneids was getting. Don't forget that he's probably going to have to put money in on the turn too, which will offer him different odds.

Also don't underestimate that Schneids has position, whereas the first guy does not. It's enough to put Schneids on the correct side of the line, and that first guy on the wrong side of the line.

In my opinion of course.

[tripdad]

i think your call is bad, but not as bad as everyone else makes it out to be. to be closing the action does make a difference here, and also the rainbow board.

Schneids call, on the other hand, is a bit worse IMO. he is not closing the action (and is playing in a much more aggressive game in general), he has more negative implied odds because he will call down if he hits a pair, and he may pick up 2nd best straight. not to mention there is already a 2-flush flop. then again, i wouldn't have thought the donor in MP would pay so good when he hit.

let's be clear here, though...both would have to be considered poor when ranking draws. the only thing that mitigates this is that they are multiway and fairly large pots.

cheers!

[naphand]

This is the what you NEED to say if taking a hand like this. I pulled a flush HU against an aggro player and he berated me for playing it so aggressively, I typed "But they were soooted!"

He left almost immediately (in a fit of rage?) but I got a ton of action from the other players at the table (which had been quite tight) for the next 20-30 minutes. Interesting psychology... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif