Should have fired again? Or should have gotten out?

[hummusx]

I was really just looking to pick up the blinds. Should I have checked behind on this one? Or fired again on the turn? Or not tried to steal in the first place?

Seat 2: sgt.sniffles ($2,270 in chips)
Seat 3: hummusx [ AD,8S ] ($4,045 in chips)
Seat 4: MikeCalls ($1,375 in chips)
Seat 8: knox1926 ($5,565 in chips)
Seat 10: mooch0223 ($1,745 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
knox1926 posts blind ($50), mooch0223 posts blind ($100).

PRE-FLOP
sgt.sniffles folds, hummusx bets $250, MikeCalls folds, knox1926 calls $200, mooch0223 folds.

FLOP [board cards 2D,3C,9D ]
knox1926 checks, hummusx bets $450, knox1926 calls $450.

TURN [board cards 2D,3C,9D,QC ]
knox1926 checks, hummusx checks.

RIVER [board cards 2D,3C,9D,QC,6S ]
knox1926 checks, hummusx checks.

SHOWDOWN
knox1926 shows [ 7D,7H ]
hummusx mucks cards [ AD,8S ]
knox1926 wins $1,500.

SUMMARY
Dealer: MikeCalls
Pot: $1,500 | Rake: $0
sgt.sniffles loses $0
hummusx loses $700
MikeCalls loses $0
knox1926 bets $700, collects $1,500, net $800
mooch0223 loses $100

[durron597]

For the most part, I like your line here (I think I bet a touch more, but that's nit-picky). I also would prefer to have the button, too, but whether to steal here has more to do with your table image (if it's tight, raise, and if it's loose, fold).

[triplc]

I think your play here is OK, with this possible exception. I don't know what your read on the big stack is, but with the big stack calling the other big stack, I've got to put him on something decent (pair, high or mid A, KQs or similar). So, when you miss the flop and he checks, I've got to make the call right there to play this strongly or get out. You chose to bet 450 into a 600 pot (if I read this right). The problem is that the 450 bet isn't enough to knock him off a fair hand, and it doesn't really tell you what he has when he calls.

So, when he checks on the turn, I think you have to check back or face the possible loss of a big pot to the big stack. Same with the river. You're only out 700 chips, you are still second in chips, and you avoid messing with the one stack that can bust you.

If it's me, I go after the flop bigger or check. Overbet or bet the pot. Make this guy think you have an overpair. If he still calls it or raises back, he's likely got a hand, and you can fold more comfortably.

If I'm the big stack, and the second stack bets into me hard, my thought process usually tells me that he has something. Why risk that position against the big stack by betting right into him unless I've got a big hand?

Tough hand, but once I lose the steal, I'm probably not going to risk any more chips here...most of the time.

Play well,

CCC

[Lori]

Personally I don't bother here, I have built my stack to 4k, the blinds are pitiful and one of the guys I'm raising is the only one on the table who can hurt me.

Spend a couple of rounds building a tight image so you can steal some blinds that are actually worth having.

Lori

[Jason Strasser]

Lori,

[ QUOTE ]
I have built my stack to 4k, the blinds are pitiful and one of the guys I'm raising is the only one on the table who can hurt me.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with basically everything said here. I think 5-handed, folding A8o one off the button when the blinds are certainly worth stealing is a mistake. I think you should be raising 3xBB, and the fact that a big stack is in the blinds doesn't matter... If anyone reraises you--its an easy fold, and you don't have to put all your chips on the line if an ace flops. You will likely have position, and you can control the hand very well. The times you steal the blinds make this raise a must IMO. Also the fact that you have 4k doesn't mean you should slow down--I'm not sure why you'd play this differently with 4k then you would with 5k or 2.8k.

Shorthanded I want big cards, and I want position. You have both here. The hand definitely has enough equity to merit a raise.

As far as the line that our hero took, I like it. Your hand does have showdown value and only better hands will call you on the river, so I like the check. If we had a little more information on the opponent we could provide slightly better advice for the flop and turn. But in general, I like this line against a normal player who will be slightly passive on the bubble.

-Jason

[Jason Strasser]

[ QUOTE ]
Spend a couple of rounds building a tight image so you can steal some blinds that are actually worth having.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just mentioned earlier how you limp with JJ UTG so you don't play guessing games with moron opponents. Are these the same moron opponents? If so, are they going to care about your image?

-Jason

[Lori]

Interesting.

I would rather fold and raise almost any two later.

If I am ditching to a reraise, then my cards become far less relevant IMHO and I can't bring myself to worry about 150 chips. Im cruising merrily towards a heads up and am not strong enough, nor are the blinds big enough, for me to effictively win the tournament early through blatant aggression.

Folding this twice here and stealing once later with xxo amounts to the same number of chips, and with far less risk, I also get 10-15 hands where I might find a 'real' hand.

I don't think it's outright bad play, but it doesn't play in a manner that I want to.
With this stack, I don't want to be in a position to fold preflop with some of my chips out there.

I'm perfectly happy to let the 5k guy control the game and take all the risks on my behalf. If he slips up then I can go on the attack, and if he KO's one or two, then I'm in the money.

In a MTT, with many players still in, I would raise this, but not in a 50-30-20 payout structure SNG.

Lori

[Lori]

If so, are they going to care about your image?

It's a valid point, but I believe that short handed they do notice, as you are in amongst the less moronic and also they have less to 'concentrate' on.

I don't like A8o unless I'm bursting to find some chips from somewhere, I'd rather be on the recieving end of this raise than the raiser here.
I just don't see the point in being bothered for these chips at this stage of the game, they are not going to change the result of the SNG, but the chips I lose might.

Lori

[Jason Strasser]

Lori,

[ QUOTE ]
If I am ditching to a reraise, then my cards become far less relevant IMHO

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really interesting to me. So blinds are 10/15, and its folded to you with 66 on the button with a 1k stack. You are going to be ditching to a substantial reraise, so just dont get involved? I would think this type of thinking would lead to extremely extremely tight play early and extremely extremely loose play late. I would say my game is polarized (tight early, aggro late), but if I followed this mantra my game would be even more polarized.

[ QUOTE ]
Folding this twice here and stealing once later with xxo amounts to the same number of chips, and with far less risk,

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a good point, but I don't understand why there is less risk? Wont you have to commit more of your stack--meaning there is more risk?

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's outright bad play, but it doesn't play in a manner that I want to.
With this stack, I don't want to be in a position to fold preflop with some of my chips out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. If you could take the time to explain to me how this specific stack, vs. say a 2k stack or a 5k stack, would change your PF decision it would be great. I am raising 3xBB with any stack over 10xBB, and with 10xBB or less I'm all-in. What do you think of a line like that?

[ QUOTE ]
I'm perfectly happy to let the 5k guy control the game and take all the risks on my behalf. If he slips up then I can go on the attack, and if he KO's one or two, then I'm in the money.


[/ QUOTE ]

In general, having played lots and lots of sit and gos, the general trend is that the chips are spread apart. This is a combination of the type of players that accumulate large stacks in typical sngs (very crazy, aggressive players).

Of course, sometimes the big stack is a very solid player catching the right cards at the right times and making the right plays. But a general trend is that the chips seem to spread out--especially when the short stacks have more than 10xBB. Often they will be selective, play back at a big stacks opening raise, and leave the big stack with semi-decent odds to call an all in. Just this general course of action seems to lead to the stacks evening out.

Which is why I would never cite "if he KO's one or two, I'm in the money" as a reason not to be aggressive and to steal. I don't think passing on +EV plays, which raising with A8o in this spot is in my book, is good. And I definitely think that playing for the other big stack to knock out a few isn't good. I don't make assumptions like this, and I would like to maintain my stack or increase it steadily. Passing on this spot is too tight.

[ QUOTE ]
In a MTT, with many players still in, I would raise this, but not in a 50-30-20 payout structure SNG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this depends where you are in a MTT, but I could be wrong.

Thanks for posting,
-Jason

[Lori]

This is really interesting to me. So blinds are 10/15, and its folded to you with 66 on the button with a 1k stack. You are going to be ditching to a substantial reraise, so just dont get involved?

Early on here I may make a small raise to keep the pot small enough that reraising me on a steal isn't worth it.
I'm trying to flop a set, and I want them there when I do, I'm totally disinterested in the 25 chips.

Thats a good point, but I don't understand why there is less risk? Wont you have to commit more of your stack--meaning there is more risk?


I am less likely to be called by a mediocre hand at the higher limits, and only need to get away with it once, the first part of this statement means that my EV chip-wise goes up, the second part is neccessary to balance the larger raise.
There is also the chance that there will be four players left which further enhances the likelihood of success.

Fair enough. If you could take the time to explain to me how this specific stack, vs. say a 2k stack or a 5k stack, would change your PF decision it would be great. I am raising 3xBB with any stack over 10xBB, and with 10xBB or less I'm all-in. What do you think of a line like that

a 2k stack and I'm in there fighting, I have to pull away from the other two shorter stacks, and my gameplan is not to win this thing, but to escape from the 'fold to ruin' trap that is looming.

a 5k stack and I play in a similar manner depending on the chip distribution.

A 6k stack and a level distribution amongst the other players and I'm going to try to win this thing and I'm raising with the intent to cripple everyone as equally as possible so they all end up having to fold into third place.
Sadly this is a rare scenario.

Which is why I would never cite "if he KO's one or two, I'm in the money" as a reason not to be aggressive and to steal. I don't think passing on +EV plays, which raising with A8o in this spot is in my book, is good

Financially I don't think it is +EV, I think that I lose more actual $$ when I lose than actual $$ when I win due to my current status of looking very likely to reach the final two.
I consider it like a long distance race where I'm taking a breather to conserve energy for the finishing line.

I am raising 3xBB with any stack over 10xBB, and with 10xBB or less I'm all-in. What do you think of a line like that?

I think I would need under 7BB to go all in here, I'll find a hand around the same level as A8 in the next six hands, I can wait a round.

Which is why I would never cite "if he KO's one or two, I'm in the money" as a reason not to be aggressive and to steal

It's the combination of an almost forced result. The part you quote on it's own is not good enough, but if someone takes some off him, I also like things a lot more.

I don't think passing on +EV plays, which raising with A8o in this spot is in my book, is good. And I definitely think that playing for the other big stack to knock out a few isn't good. I don't make assumptions like this, and I would like to maintain my stack or increase it steadily. Passing on this spot is too tight

It's early, I want to see what happens, I'll force the action when I know what it is and who's making the running.
If the big stack starts to bully them, then that's great, I may catch him myself, and if not I'll probably get heads up about 2.5-1 down or so.
He may also go into lock down mode himself, in which case I'll steal with anything that looks half playable at a later stage.
I'm in a position to win this thing, I don't want to be hasty.
I want to react to them, not the other way around.

I think this depends where you are in a MTT, but I could be wrong.

Agree entirely.

Lori

[Lori]

I'm a little tired here, where do you play that has 15000 chips in play?

Party is 8000/10000, Paradise 10000, Stars 13500 and Ultimate 10000.

The reason I ask is because the blind structure is important if playing the waiting game.

I may be missing something very obvious, but like I said I'm tired (and have had a two month absence)

Lori

[Jason Strasser]

Nice post Lori,

I think we can now assume that a read on the big stack does change how you would play this hand, as well as how the shorter stacks are playing. My post assumes everyone is fairly typical. But that is a broad statement, and the level of the sng would affect the definition of typical, as well as other factors.

Overall, I think your thinking isn't weak tight. I'm actually not quite sure how to classify your thinking to be honest. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif But if you have a plan, and if within your plan you can justify how it is more $EV for you to fold this hand, then I guess I have to take your word for it. I feel like this is a +$EV and more obviously a +Cev raise within my game plan--however I do think that it could be debatable.

-Jason

[Lori]

Overall, I think your thinking isn't weak tight. I'm actually not quite sure how to classify your thinking to be honest

Weak-Tight is fairly close, although it's more of a Tricky-Weak-Tight.

I will often make -Cev plays to get +$EV ones later.

A further example of this would be if it is folded around to the SB on the first hand and he raises small, I'm hardly folding any two here because he isn't going to do that many times, and frankly I don't want him doing it at 300-600.

Lori

[Jason Strasser]

You see, I'd have the exact opposite approach there. Early I'd fold because the blinds arent big. If he kept doing it, I'd feel like I had a very big advantage because later in the game I could come over the top of his min raise with a wide range of hands--knowing he'd have to lay them down because of my image and because he could have any 2 crap cards. So I would adjust to my opponent, and let him think that he could get away with stealing my blind early, in exchange for making him pay big later.

-Jason

[Lori]

Classic, absolutely classic, and of course equally valid.

Lori

[hummusx]

PokerRoom.com. All of their SNGs start you with 1500 in chips.

Thanks for all the great thoughts guys.

[steeser]

For this particular hand, I may be inclined to check the flop. A lot of times, people view a check as more of a hint of extreme strength than weakness. Then if checked to on the turn, I would come out firing a pot sized bet to represent the Q. If bet at on the turn I would let it go.

A lot of times people will call the flop bet with two overcards, like KQ, or AJ.

But in regards to how you played it, I definitely check it down the rest of the way, you made a steal attempt and bet the flop and were called, move on to the next hand and hope he was on a draw.

[t_perkin]

I would go with Jason here.

Obviously both are valid approaches. But I think the fact that there is at least a 50/50 chance that he (or you) wont even be there when it gets to 300/600 makes Jason's approach more valuable.

Obviously the whole table in theory sees you defend. My new years poker resolution was to watch the whole table to see who was giving their blinds away. I have failed abysmally and still only think of the players to my left and right most of the time. I don't think I am alone.

Of course mostly I would just go with the cards, if I can piss on him in the early rounds then great. But I would be quite happy to try and take advantage at a later stage.

I don't give up much CEV for protecting my blinds early in a SnG.

just some thoughts

Tim