Dealing with the swing that breaks tthe bank

[mike28]

Wow, today sucked.

I started my online poker playing about two months ago. Not too well versed in the game I spent a good month just playing the free money games on Party, watching it on TV, and reading a few good books.

Then I felt that I could make a little money in the cash games, so I bought in for $100 at Party, cleared my free chipset, all was going well. I was up $30 and got my $25 bonus so I was more then overjoyed.

Then I started losing.
And losing.
and losing.

Playing stupid hands and just bad luck broke me out, I reloaded for $50 and went after it.

Then I started winning
and winning.
and winning.

All the way up to yesterday, when I peaked at about $230. I had even been playing 2-3 nights a week in a home game, and winning anywhere between 20-50 a night ($10 buy in).

So I felt pretty confident in my skills. No, I wasn't ready for the WSoP just yet, but I felt that I could beat the NL25 6max's.

And here I am today, with .24 left in my account.

Yup. about $250 down the drain today on the worst beats I've ever had in my life (they're probably common, but I think I've angered someone up above in poker land)

I start off today and on about the 12th hand, I look down and find out that it's Christmas in August, AA. I raise it and get 2 other callers. Flop comes, Ad,6s,9h. I'm looking like the cat who ate the canary at this point. We check around to 4th street, 2s. I bet the pot ($5) and the guy to my left moves in for about $40. I quickly call him and lean back with the biggest smile on my face you can imagine.

8h on the river. He flips 7,10.

I fall out of chair. I might be a novice at poker but moving in with a gut straight draw just seems like a bad play. Who knows.

About an hour later I've worked back up to around $60, and same situation occurs while I'm holding kings. I flop a set, he moves in on me and draws his straight.

I'm pretty furious at this point. I've lost around $100 to these damn straights.

I rebuy and start to build it back up. About 30 mins into my 3rd rebuy for 25, I flop a straight. He moves, I call. Guess what, 2 spades on 4th and 5th gives him a flush.

What the hell am I doing wrong here?!

Down $75 all together, about 200ish from the winnings I had going into each hand.

I decide it's time to take a break, I go and get some food, have a nice lunch, and decide to try some SnG's to change up the setting.

Finish 5th in both SnG's, busted when my jacks met his kings and when my aces met his set.

So it's back to the ring games. I catch a flush, move in after he reraises. Oh [censored] you don't say, draw a straight flush? Yup.

I'm beggining to hate poker at this point.

Rebuy again, and lose it on tilting. I go and take a shower, watch some tv, and come back promising to play good poker and not to retilt.

Which brings me to my last rebuy. We both had sets of aces, with my jack to his king.

Tough luck eh?


Is this normal? Should I even consider redepositing? How do you all deal with the swings like this?

[sthief09]

you have learned the importance in having a bankroll

[mike28]

How big of a bankroll should I have?

I thought of swings as the little down 30-50 hits I'd get every now and then, but would pull to even or up by the end of the night or the next day.

[SirArthur]

These hands are normal, and I see similar ones almost daily, although the guy trying to buy the pot with his gutshot & hitting it is a true maniac.
Make a note on him, and sit in on games he frequents.

Your title says it all, you just have to learn to "deal" with it, and sthief is right, you must have an adequate Bankroll to survive the inherent swings in the game.

Take a break for a few days then redposit atleast 15X the buy in for NL, and give it another shot.
If you deposit just $50 or $100 or something you'll most likely lose it all.

[MrGrob]

If you are going to play NL, I have heard that you need to be able to go "back to the bank" at LEAST 10 times. And that is for a single game. So $250, for a single session of $25 NL -- for playing it as your main game? I am not sure...$2500 seems a bit much, but then again...you can lose a nice sum, just as you did, if the cards fall just right...so maybe that is not that far off. Anyone else? Am I off here?

[mike28]

Well, I really don't have around 400 bones to commit to poker right now, so I guess i'm out of online for now.

College starts up in a week though, so maybe I can find a decent ring game up there and start re-building my bankroll.

[SirArthur]

A NL Bankroll should be about 10-15 times the Buy in you play at.

So somewhere between $250-$400 would be alright. Of course, for someone who is a losing playing, no amount would be enough. (not saying that you are).

[Losing all]

100 buyins seems a little steep, but 10 is way too low. MsSunshine posted something about having a couple 20 buyin slides a year, and he isn't too bad.

[LinusKS]

I agree with what the others said - there's just a lot of variance (fancy word for luck) in poker. Especially in no limit, and especially at Party Poker.

If someone goes all-in against you with his gut shot against your set, there's just not much you can do about that. (Except hope it happens more often.)

I don't think you need a $2500 bankroll, though. $250-400 should be fine.

Hey, and what about that chip set?

What did you have to do to get it, and how long before it arrives?

[mike28]

Hey, and what about that chip set?

What did you have to do to get it, and how long before it arrives?

[/ QUOTE ]

300 piece 11.5 gram chips, alluminum case and all. Deposit $100 and play 275 raked hands (took a few hours folding anything except premo's at 1/2)

Recieved about 4 days after I confirmed, check it out at www.pokersourceonline.com (http://www.pokersourceonline.com)

[Airpoaneman]

Hey Mike,

I have been having the same problem you have been having, but mine has been getting knocked out in tournaments that I cant afford, that I should had won. NL 30/3 tournaments when I only have 100 bucks.

So, this week I have been experimenting on my own limitations. I just started limit games about 3 weeks ago and have been able to stay about even.

Deposited $50.00. Two tabling .5/1. One hour later left with $66.XX. Went into a .5/1 table and a NL 25 table. Left one hour later, Now up to $96.XX. Played One 1/2 table and one NL25. One hour later left with $120.XX.
Never playing 2/4 I wanted to see what my limitations were. So after about an hour and a half of 2/4 I left with +.5BB. Later that evening I played another hour and ran into a hand that caused me to leave the table.

JJ, pre flop is raised, I 3-bet. 3 callers

Flop : 3 9 10
I bet, am raised, re-raise. One caller.
Turn : 8
Turn i check, he bets, i raise, he re-raises, i call.
River : 8
River I check, he bets, I call.

JQclubs

I leave the table about -10BB.

I am currently not ready to handle that kind of game.

I then threw the rest of my money away in tournaments when I didn’t feel like playing but felt obligated to attempt to increase my bankroll.(still something I need to work on)

In college I will play .5/1 for two weeks. then 10/1 tournaments for 2 weeks. 1/2 next two weeks, 20/2 next two weeks. Then slow down from there. Also Sub-qualifiers are looking really good right now. I know a person who makes top 30 twice a month and qualifies with sub qualifiers which makes for a very good profit for them.

We are so, so, so young. Don’t waist your life on the computer, much less playing poker. If you enjoy the game like most people do, the occasional session is plenty, dont over do it or it will run your life.

[Losing all]

Let me see if I've got this right.. Your advice, other than not playing if you're young, is to play an hour at each limit, and move down if you lose a hand?

That's not a really solid strategy, dude.

[bernie]

Welcome to the wonderful world of bankroll management.

Now there's a starting point.

b

[pzhon]

What does it mean to have a sufficient bankroll? Some people mean that you should have a 5% chance of going broke if you play at that level forever. If you are a competent NL player, then $250 is a sufficient bankroll for Party's $25 NL tables. Perhaps it is just that 5% isn't 0%.

Ten buy-ins may be too few when you have less of an edge. In very weak games, you may have more of an edge, though the variance can be greater, too. Ten buy-ins should be enough.

You can make busting out much less likely by shifting to SNGs when you have less than $100.

[ QUOTE ]
Playing stupid hands and just bad luck broke me out, I reloaded for $50 and went after it.
...
Rebuy again, and lose it on tilting.
...
Which brings me to my last rebuy. We both had sets of aces, with my jack to his king.

[/ QUOTE ]
You should worry that you may have some large leaks in your game. Just as, "A man who is a gentleman 90% of the time is no gentleman," playing decently at NL 90% of the time does not make you a decent player. Tilting can be horribly expensive in NL. So can playing AJ.


[ QUOTE ]
I raise it and get 2 other callers. Flop comes, Ad,6s,9h... We check around to 4th street, 2s. I bet the pot ($5) and the guy to my left moves in for about $40.

[/ QUOTE ]
What does your opponent put you on? Quite possibly JJ, QQ, or KK. Would you fold those to a raise? That your opponent had a gutshot draw wasn't why he raised. It was a bluff that would work a very high fraction of the time if you always bet an ace-high flop with TPGK.

By the way, that the pot was $5 after you raised and got 2 callers suggests that you raised to 3xBB. That doesn't sufficiently exploit a weakness that Party NL $25 players have of calling too much. You will still get many callers with an open raise to 4xBB or a raise to 6xBB after 1-3 limpers.

[jfresh]

[ QUOTE ]


JJ, pre flop is raised, I 3-bet. 3 callers

Flop : 3 9 10
I bet, am raised, re-raise. One caller.
Turn : 8
Turn i check, he bets, i raise, he re-raises, i call.
River : 8
River I check, he bets, I call.

JQclubs


[/ QUOTE ]

i don't see anything that amazing about this hand.... flopped an open ended and turned a straight with two high suited connectors.... where's the bad beat?

[BlueBear]

These swings are just a regular part of poker. I prefer maintaining a large bankroll, say 30 times the minimum buyin so I can withstand the fluctuations comfortably without becoming frustrated and tilting.

[Blarg]

I always keep in mind Puggy Pearson's famous two-year losing streak. If one of the best in the world can lose for two years and still maintain a good attitude and come back from it, I almost never have anything to complain about in comparison.

[StogeyMike]

My thoughts exactly - in this case the opponent played the hand perfectly, including the flop raise.

While this is not at all a bad beat, I can sympathize with the original poster a bit. It does seem that when things go wrong EVERYTHING goes wrong, including having your "high pocket pairs with no overcards on the board " hands cracked.

But, this is the game we have chosen...

[adamstewart]

... such a tool.

[turnipmonster]

FWIW, you realize that beats like this are the reason you can make a ton of money in a game like that, right?

post some hands to the small stakes no limit forum. don't worry about bad beats, work on improving your game and scrape together a couple hundred and take some shots at the 25 game. the main thing you should be concerned about is learning to play well, not making money. money will come as a result of playing well and making good decisions.

--turnipmonster

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
the main thing you should be concerned about is learning to play well, not making money. money will come as a result of playing well

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect.

[dogmeat]

Well, you probably don't go on tilt and then broke if you don't misplay that 12th hand of the session. If you raised preflop, bet the flop -

As for your bankroll, I asked MS Sunshine about he and his wife's bankroll swings (well respected NL online player) and he said they routinely go through a 9-10 Buy-in downturn each month. He also said they have had two seperate downturns of 20 Buy-in's. Now, since they are very good, and you are new at the game..... I would guess you should expect to see downturns of 2-3x that much. If you are playing $25 buy-in NL, expect to bust out unless you have a $1000 bankroll. Not an insult, but honest advice.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif