Is Jeb laying groundwork for steal II?

[Toro]

Read this article and comment.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/16/opinion/16herbert.html?n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and% 20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fColumnists

[vulturesrow]

Typical NYT drivel. We have no reason to suspect that this not a legitimate investigation of voter fraud other than someone thinks it might not be.

[playerfl]

I voted in florida during that election. The whole "steal" thing is just bullsh*t. Get over it.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
I voted in florida during that election. The whole "steal" thing is just bullsh*t. Get over it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe that Bush stole the Florida election, but how is that fact that you voted in Florida relevant to that claim?

I voted in New York. That does not make me an authority on how the election was carried out through the entire state.

[Zeno]

What's this piss-ant Loony liberal thing with having to register to view the holy and sacrosanct NYT. Do liberals also perform a ritual with the sacred scriptures (NYT) by placing it on the mantle; lighting candles all around, and then praying to it!

[ QUOTE ]
Is Jeb laying groundwork for steal II?

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly hope so. Two fast-break slam-dunks in a row are what I am rooting for.

Four more years – guaranteed! As will soon be reported by the most Fair and Balanced News Outlet in the Nation – FOX NEWS.

O’Reilly Rules. Limbaugh is Lucid. Coulter is Cool. The Republicans are marching on to victory! Get use to it. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif


Le Misanthrope

[riverflush]

oh boy, here we go

I feel that this thread has disenfranchised me.

[MMMMMM]

Well, I would read it if registration not required, or if you had copied it here.

[Toro]

Sorry about that. The registration thing pissed me off too and didn't realize you would all have to do it too if I gave the link. So here it is:

OP-ED COLUMNIST
Suppress the Vote?
By BOB HERBERT

Published: August 16, 2004






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Columnist Page: Bob Herbert
Forum: Discuss This Column

E-mail: bobherb@nytimes.com








TIMES NEWS TRACKER



Topics
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Voting Requirements




Blacks




Florida








he big story out of Florida over the weekend was the tragic devastation caused by Hurricane Charley. But there's another story from Florida that deserves our attention.

State police officers have gone into the homes of elderly black voters in Orlando and interrogated them as part of an odd "investigation" that has frightened many voters, intimidated elderly volunteers and thrown a chill over efforts to get out the black vote in November.

The officers, from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, which reports to Gov. Jeb Bush, say they are investigating allegations of voter fraud that came up during the Orlando mayoral election in March.

Officials refused to discuss details of the investigation, other than to say that absentee ballots are involved. They said they had no idea when the investigation might end, and acknowledged that it may continue right through the presidential election.

"We did a preliminary inquiry into those allegations and then we concluded that there was enough evidence to follow through with a full criminal investigation," said Geo Morales, a spokesman for the Department of Law Enforcement.

The state police officers, armed and in plain clothes, have questioned dozens of voters in their homes. Some of those questioned have been volunteers in get-out-the-vote campaigns.

I asked Mr. Morales in a telephone conversation to tell me what criminal activity had taken place.

"I can't talk about that," he said.

I asked if all the people interrogated were black.

"Well, mainly it was a black neighborhood we were looking at - yes,'' he said.

He also said, "Most of them were elderly."

When I asked why, he said, "That's just the people we selected out of a random sample to interview."

Back in the bad old days, some decades ago, when Southern whites used every imaginable form of chicanery to prevent blacks from voting, blacks often fought back by creating voters leagues, which were organizations that helped to register, educate and encourage black voters. It became a tradition that continues in many places, including Florida, today.

Not surprisingly, many of the elderly black voters who found themselves face to face with state police officers in Orlando are members of the Orlando League of Voters, which has been very successful in mobilizing the city's black vote.

The president of the Orlando League of Voters is Ezzie Thomas, who is 73 years old. With his demonstrated ability to deliver the black vote in Orlando, Mr. Thomas is a tempting target for supporters of George W. Bush in a state in which the black vote may well spell the difference between victory and defeat.

The vile smell of voter suppression is all over this so-called investigation by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

Joseph Egan, an Orlando lawyer who represents Mr. Thomas, said: "The Voters League has workers who go into the community to do voter registration, drive people to the polls and help with absentee ballots. They are elderly women mostly. They get paid like $100 for four or five months' work, just to offset things like the cost of their gas. They see this political activity as an important contribution to their community. Some of the people in the community had never cast a ballot until the league came to their door and encouraged them to vote."

Now, said Mr. Egan, the fear generated by state police officers going into people's homes as part of an ongoing criminal investigation related to voting is threatening to undo much of the good work of the league. He said, "One woman asked me, 'Am I going to go to jail now because I voted by absentee ballot?' "

According to Mr. Egan, "People who have voted by absentee ballot for years are refusing to allow campaign workers to come to their homes. And volunteers who have participated for years in assisting people, particularly the elderly or handicapped, are scared and don't want to risk a criminal investigation."

Florida is a state that's very much in play in the presidential election, with some polls showing John Kerry in the lead. A heavy-handed state police investigation that throws a blanket of fear over thousands of black voters can only help President Bush.

The long and ugly tradition of suppressing the black vote is alive and thriving in the Sunshine State.

[MMMMMM]

Thank you, el Toro;-)

I think the Op-Ed author raises some important questions, but he also seems to be jumping to conclusions too readily. Foir instance, there very well may be a legitimate investigation into something like whether fraudulent absentee ballots wrre filled out and submitted.

I think it is important that this issue be raised and looked at more closely. I don't agree with the author's assessment that it necessarily is an attempt to suppress the black vote, although it could be.

[Cyrus]

Perhaps Brother Jeb is facing an insurmountable obstacle.



Latest Polls on Battleground States (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/bush_vs_kerry_sbys.html)

[superleeds]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is important that this issue be raised and looked at more closely.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I wonder how many of the networks will take it up, wonder if it will be mentioned in the NYT again? Seems a perfect opportunity for the liberal media, don't you agree?

[Toro]

If there is anything nefarious behind this, my guess is that the motivation is not to suppress Black people from voting but rather voters who most likely would be voting Democrat.

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]
What's this piss-ant Loony liberal thing with having to register to view the holy and sacrosanct NYT. Do liberals also perform a ritual with the sacred scriptures (NYT) by placing it on the mantle; lighting candles all around, and then praying to it!

[ QUOTE ]
Is Jeb laying groundwork for steal II?

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly hope so. Two fast-break slam-dunks in a row are what I am rooting for.

Four more years – guaranteed! As will soon be reported by the most Fair and Balanced News Outlet in the Nation – FOX NEWS.

O’Reilly Rules. Limbaugh is Lucid. Coulter is Cool. The Republicans are marching on to victory! Get use to it. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif


Le Misanthrope

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a fool.

The Shrub is far and away the worst president this country has EVER seen!! Let's review.

Election scandal - Shrub loses the popular vote but somehow has it "all fixed up" for him as he has his whole life.

Economy - How many jobs have been lost since the Shrub took office? I believe its a seven digit figure.

Taxes - Breaks for the rich 1% (Mostly Shrubs buddies)

Corporate scandal - Hundreds of thousands of Americans robbed of their retirement (future) by spineless corporate thieves. Shrubs very good friends being hauled away in cuffs.

Leadership - The country has never more divided by a Presidents policies. Another 4 years of the shrub and we may just see The Civil War II. A good leader unites.

Environment - Shrub has proven he has no concern for the condition of the planet for future generations of Americans.

Military - Shrub is currently conducting a "backdoor" draft. His unjustified war in Iraq which has now cost over 1,000 American lives and billions in debt. It has also fueled the terrorist agenda and has given them new recruting power. And they actually want to claim some kind of victory in the war on terror. How many times has the reason for invading Iraq changed. One idea gets shot down so they backtrack and come up with another idea. All they are left with, is "we had to invade because Sadaam is bad and they have mass graves." Americans that are accepting this last desperate excuse are STUPID and morally bankrupt. Many of the mass graves are known to be from the Iran/Iraq war in the 80's. You know the one were we sold weapons to Sadaam to beat our enemy of Iran at that time.

The comedy in all of this is the very reasons we are told we invaded Iraq, are ACTUALLY taking place in other countries currently. Iran, North Korea. But we invade Iraq. But it had nothing to do with oil right?

And to sum up,
O'Reily is a grade a douche bag who has had to eat his own words about Shrub more than once. Limbaugh is the best. Fat, pill popping, hypocrite slob. Hopped up on synthetic heroin pills for years on end, meanwhile sitting behind his mic spewing turds from his mouth, passing judgment on drug users. Rush once said that drug users should be locked up and the key thrown away. No treatment. He probably said this while he was high as a kite.

And these are the people you look up to.

You.
Are.
A.
Fool.

[elwoodblues]

Bush might be a bad president. He might be inarticulate. He might not make solid arguments.

That doesn't make what you are saying any less ridiculous:


[ QUOTE ]
Election scandal - Shrub loses the popular vote but somehow has it "all fixed up" for him as he has his whole life.

[/ QUOTE ]

National popular vote has nothing to do with who is elected president.


[ QUOTE ]
Taxes - Breaks for the rich 1% (Mostly Shrubs buddies)

[/ QUOTE ]

If 1% of America or even most of 1% of America are Bush buddies, he should be our president. The platform he ran on included those tax cuts. We shouldn't blame him for doing what he told us he'd do.

[ QUOTE ]
Shrubs very good friends being hauled away in cuffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which would only make sense if, as you suggest, he is buddies with most of the richest people in America. With all those buddies, he's bound to have some friends who are bad. Really, the corporate scandal folks are a very small percent of all of Bush's buddies (which range somewhere around 1% of the entire US population /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[ QUOTE ]
Leadership - Another 4 years of the shrub and we may just see The Civil War II.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ridiculous.


[ QUOTE ]
Military - Shrub is currently conducting a "backdoor" draft.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Calling up reservists is not a backdoor draft. This is exactly what they're hired for.

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]

National popular vote has nothing to do with who is elected president.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say that if there is any sort of rational behind it.

[ QUOTE ]
If 1% of America or even most of 1% of America are Bush buddies, he should be our president. The platform he ran on included those tax cuts. We shouldn't blame him for doing what he told us he'd do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm, I didn't vote for the Shrub so I obviously wasn't buying his platform.

[ QUOTE ]
Leadership - Another 4 years of the shrub and we may just see The Civil War II.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, but there is a point there.

[ QUOTE ]
Huh? Calling up reservists is not a backdoor draft. This is exactly what they're hired for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bush is playing pawn with our military. Check the story about his recent "historic" troop movement. His military strategies may leave the US in a very vulnerable situation. We are streched to thin.
If a REAL crisis were to unfold in say North Korea or China or Iran, where are we going to get the man power? We are in no position for ANYTHING to go wrong at this point or we are going to be in real trouble.

What is scary is HOW BADLY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION HAS BUTCHERED THE IRAQ INVASION. And this was a plan of their OWN devising. This was THEIR idea. And it has gone horribly wrong. When you plan for something and then display increadible amounts of incompetence you look like a fool. If this is all the better we can do when we are mapping out an invasion, what would happen if as I said, A REAL CRISIS WERE TO UNFOLD.

(My guess is it would be more failure by the US and the Bushites as shown during 9/11 and the run up to war.)

Please respond.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
And these are the people you look up to.


[/ QUOTE ]

O'Reilly, Rush, Ann Coulter, Bush, and Cheney are Gods to me. I worship the ground they walk on.


[ QUOTE ]


You.
Are.
A.
Fool.



[/ QUOTE ]

The overuse of periods detracts from your statement and dilutes its punch. The statement is also incorrect, at least partly. I am a Fascist. If you wish, Fascist Fool may be used but I think that it is an over description. If you wish to insult me, please try and get it right. Thank You.

Your Friend,

-Zeno

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
You say that if there is any sort of rational behind it

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a rationale behind it. I don't necessarily agree with the rationale, but it exists. The rationale is that the United States is a democratic republic in that we embrace both democratica and republican principals. The founders were leary of the power of the majority and also wanted to support republican principals. The electoral college does that.

[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, I didn't vote for the Shrub so I obviously wasn't buying his platform

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither did I (nor will I). I think the tax plan was a bad idea, but I don't fault Bush for somehow sneaking it in or surreptitiously getting it through Congress. By electing Bush, the country told him that's what they wanted.

Re: Civil War II

I understand the point. I think Bush took a situation of unprecedented national (and international) unity and has found a way to piss it away. We are nowhere near Civil War II.

[ QUOTE ]
Bush is playing pawn with our military... HOW BADLY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION HAS BUTCHERED THE IRAQ INVASION...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. The adminsitration is not handling the Iraq situation well. That doesn't lead me to the conclusion that we have a de facto/backdoor draft.

[Toro]

I love starting these things and then get out of the way once the punches start flying! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[playerfl]

ok, i will add that i have lived in florida all my life and there has never been an election problem big enough to make the national or even state wide news. Florida is not a state with common election problems.

[playerfl]

you're as looney as the guy that started this thread.

there was no election fraud, and whether Bush or Kerry wins this country in 4 years time will be very similar but a little poorer.

[Toro]

[ QUOTE ]
you're as looney as the guy that started this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's never looney to get a good discusion going on issues that people with differing opinions are passionate about.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
you're as looney as the guy that started this thread.


[/ QUOTE ]

I certaintly hope so.

Also, you are not Ray Zee, therefore; you must capitalize all sentences.

-Zeno: Loony Fascist.

PS. Stop wasting your time here and check out the Beach Volleybally thread. Now that is someting worth getting into.

[MMMMMM]

"The overuse of periods detracts from your statement and dilutes its punch. The statement is also incorrect, at least partly. I am a Fascist. If you wish to insult me, please try and get it right. Thank You.
"


Zeno,

I am thinking of becoming a Fascist, too. My feeling is that individual fascism is not really much of a problem; it's government fascism we have to worry about.

[playerfl]

ok, sorry i called you a looney, it just seemed fun at the time.

I will now start my own looney thread.

[Toro]

Well I just can't let this go. Have to set the record straight. I am looney but the thread was not! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[West]

Bush stole it - believe that.

[playerfl]

are you a retard, or just trying to stir something up ?

I don't even like Bush, and I know the election was as fair as it could be.

I would be more willing to believe that democrats knew they were close to losing and intentionally f*cked things up hoping for a recount, which in fact they got.

but, i don't believe that either, so let the whole stupid matter die.

[West]

No, I'm stating a fact. "Fair as can be"? You must live in Fantasy Land, USA.

I've argued this point waaaaaay too much on another forum to really have the energy to do it all over again here, but I will give you one just one link off the top of my head to start with. But this really only just covers the Supreme Court angle:

here (http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20010205&c=1&s=bugliosi)

Do you just listen to Fox News or something? Rush Limbaugh? Sean Hannity?