Yippy Skippy

[Rico Suave]

My woman wanted to talk for some reason tonite, so I was playing on autopilot--no reads. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Rico is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Rico calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="666666">5 folds</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Rico calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Rico raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Rico calls.

Turn: (9.66 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Rico checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Rico calls.

River: (12.66 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Rico bets</font>...

Standard? Just a check here.

-Rico

[stoxtrader]

flop raise is somewhat debatelable, as is the river, if MP3 is very aggressive I would think about a check raise.

[sublime]

flop raise is somewhat debatelable, as is the river, if MP3 is very aggressive I would think about a check raise.

The flop raise rico made in this hand is pretty standard. Two overcards, a gut shot and backdoor flush make this the best line of play.

Turn call is close, right? Implied odds cover any lack of immediate odds, plus you are closing action.

The river is cool, with four to a straight on board checking this would be risky.

[Trix]

Bet his pair is most likely lower than Aces, so it will be hard for him to find a bet on the river when the board goes 4straight also.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet his pair is most likely lower than Aces, so it will be hard for him to find a bet on the river when the board goes 4straight also.


[/ QUOTE ]

Knowing party players, he could have the ace and still check. I like the river bet as well. I'de hate for it to get checked through.

Haupt_234

[mikeyKay]

raise on the flop standard?? i must be weak tight...im not feeling comfortable at all if my over cards pair due to the coordination of this board, i think they are far from clean outs...i think you have to bet the river, you are scared that you wouldnt be able to get a CR in, right?

-mike

[Victor]

On the flop, I would just call the bet from the UTG. You barely have the odds to draw to a gutshot for twobets and by raising you risk a 3-bet from the preflop aggressor. This 3-bet really hurts your gutshot odds.

The turn is fine.

On the river it is a good bet as is unlikely MP will bet for fear of a checkraise.

[MoreWineII]

Is this really a standard flop raise? Can someone explain it to a dummy like me?

[Victor]

This flop raise is super debatable and entirely dependent on the preflop raiser MP. Essentially, this raise is to clean up your overcard outs. So, you need an opp who will raise limpers preflop with A-K, A-Q, K-Q, A-J but still fold on the flop to 2 bets.

Not very likely at 2-4 party IMO. I think almost all 2-4 partiers will call two cold on the flop here. Couple that with the likelihood that almost all will 3-bet with AA-JJ and this raise is clearly negative EV.

[Rico Suave]

Morewine:

[ QUOTE ]
Is this really a standard flop raise? Can someone explain it to a dummy like me?

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is large. I have overcards, gutshot, and a backdoor flush draw--folding is wrong, so do I call or raise? The preflop raiser is to my left, so if I raise, put pressure on his likely overcards, and his folding (AQ, KQ, AK) will increase my chances of winning this largish pot. In addition, if I get him to fold, there is a chance that I could take a free card if I didn't hit and a blank fell. (I might get a free card even if he calls). That is what I was thinking when I raised.

--Rico

[J.R.]

Turn call is close, right? Implied odds cover any lack of immediate odds, plus you are closing action.

11.66-1 closing the turn action with no good reason to fear UTG or the PFR has a spade draw means immediate odds are good plus the implied odds that come with the pot size (hero stands a good chance of getting paid off even with the 4 straight on board) and the chance utg might have a J and overplay the river.

[sublime]

11.66-1 closing the turn action with no good reason to fear UTG or the PFR has a spade draw means immediate odds are good plus the implied odds that come with the pot size (hero stands a good chance of getting paid off even with the 4 straight on board) and the chance utg might have a J and overplay the river. 11.66-1 closing the turn action with no good reason to fear UTG or the PFR has a spade draw means immediate odds are good plus the implied odds that come with the pot size (hero stands a good chance of getting paid off even with the 4 straight on board) and the chance utg might have a J and overplay the river.

Yeah, I have a lazy mans "odds calculator" at home, so when I am live or away from it I just do the rough calculations in my head. I assumed this was a good call.

[Guy McSucker]

I think that's all perfect.

Preflop is obviously fine. The flop raise is fun. On the turn you close the action and have pot odds to draw. Implied odds for the three clean tens make up for the possibility that the T/images/graemlins/spade.gif gives someone a flush.

River bet is excellent. There's some chance it would get checked through, if he has a pocket pair below aces, which you avoid by betting out; and betting gives you some chance of getting three bets in, if he has AJ, JJ or even trips which can't believe you'd play a "gutshot".

Nice hand.

If you listen carefully, you can hear someone saying
"LOL. Check-raise the flop with a gutshot. u fish"

Guy.

[sublime]

The pot is large. I have overcards, gutshot, and a backdoor flush draw--folding is wrong, so do I call or raise? The preflop raiser is to my left, so if I raise, put pressure on his likely overcards, and his folding (AQ, KQ, AK) will increase my chances of winning this largish pot. In addition, if I get him to fold, there is a chance that I could take a free card if I didn't hit and a blank fell. (I might get a free card even if he calls). That is what I was thinking when I raised.

Great explanation.

[sublime]

im not feeling comfortable at all if my over cards pair due to the coordination of this board, i think they are far from clean outs..

Even more of a reason to raise. If MP has overcards he cant be to happy with coldcalling two due to the coordination of the board, if he has an overpair so be it.

[sublime]

On the flop, I would just call the bet from the UTG. You barely have the odds to draw to a gutshot for twobets and by raising you risk a 3-bet from the preflop aggressor. This 3-bet really hurts your gutshot odds.


You are undervalueing heros hand. While his overcards are not squeky clean, they must be counted as something. Lets say:

Q/J's= 2 combined outs (conservative enough?)
Gutshot= 4 outs
Backdoor flush= 1.5 outs

Now if your raise knocks out AQ/KQ your hand is even more valuable.

[MoreWineII]

Thanks Rico, the brain-clouds are clearing.

[Victor]

My point is that unless MP is a fairly decent player, he will call 2-cold with A-K, K-Q, A-Q rendering your raise useless. A laggro might even 3-bet these hands. Furthermore, any player will 3-bet with AA-JJ making your raise costly; so as a default play it is incorrect to raise. However, if you know you are against a decent player (who can lay down overcards) or a total weaky (who wont raise his overpair) then I would agree with the raise.

Poster says he has no reads so he must assume his opp is bad so a raise really accomplishes nothing.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
flop raise is somewhat debatelable

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the flop raise is almost automatic - I know people hate to throw that term around, but you have a very - how would Ed Miller put it - "Robust" hand.

What you want to do is pushout hands like AQ, KQ, KJ, AJ, by having them pay two bets on the flop. - Ala "Cleaning up your outs".

Hero doesn't have a just a Gut Shot - Hero has a Gut Shot + Back Door flush, and a chance at having Top Pair, assuming he can clean up his outs.

Nice Hand - Well played.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Rico Suave]

Sarge:

[ QUOTE ]
- how would Ed Miller put it - "Robust" hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ed's use of "robust hand" struck me as amusing too. I think you should adopt this phrase as your own, and use it in as many posts as possible.

--Rico

[me454555]

Calling 2 cold w/just overcards is not good poker. He's only getting 6:1 on his call for 6 outs. Even if he does have a hand like AK, its not the end of the world if he calls to cold b/c his outs are separte from my outs.

A raise also gives you a chance to buy the button, control the hand, and take a free turn card if you so choose to.

[Rico Suave]

JR said, "(hero stands a good chance of getting paid off even with the 4 straight on board) and the chance utg might have a J and overplay the river. "

DING, DING, DING!

MP2 had AJo and we capped the river (sadly, we lost UTG+1 along the way)...obviously mhig.

I thought the river bet was better than a c/r and I thought the flop raise was better than a call, but I wanted to get your take. Thanks for the input.

--Rico

[Victor]

"Calling 2 cold w/just overcards is not good poker."

Obviously. But do you assume that most party 2-4 players play good poker? Or do you assume that they go too far with there hands?

" Even if he does have a hand like AK"

AK is the only holding - other than a high pocket pair that will 3-bet - that does not have your hand dominated. A-Q, K-Q, A-J, K-J are all possible holdings.

"A raise also gives you a chance to buy the button, control the hand, and take a free turn card if you so choose to. "

It seems to me, and this hand exemplifies it, that a raise gives a very good chance to get 3-bet. Now rather than calling 2-bets and getting odds of about 13:2 (6.5:1) you will create a situation where you are calling 15:3 (5:1).

So the question is, when you raise in this situation does it increase your expected return enough to compensate the times when you are 3-bet and give up the pot odds?

As a default I would say no and I would point to my belief that this raise will not knock out MP often enough when you are dominated and will instead open you up to a 3-bet every time you encounter a high pair.

Of course, I did no real mathematical analysis and our assumptions are not really clear, or agreed upon. If we were to assume that MP would fold all hands except the overpairs then I would agree that raising is correct here. I, however, think that is a very poor assumption without any read on the player.

[Ponks]

Seems straight outta SSHE.

Nice hand and well played.

Ponks

[Rico Suave]

Victor:

Victor:

You make a good argument, and I am glad someone is taking an opposite position.

First of all, this is party 3/6 and not 2/4, which is different, imo. The typical 3/6 table I play at consists of 1-3 TAGs, 4-5 tightish but mediocre players, and 1-3 really bad players--either LAG, calling station, maniac, etc. Some tables are better, some tables are worse, but this is typical. (Lately, the games have been better /images/graemlins/cool.gif) My default play is not to assume that they are buffoons, but rather mediocre. I have no way of proving that the typical 3/6 preflop raiser will fold his overcards when faced with calling 2 cold on that flop getting 6:1, but it is my experience that it would not be an insignificant percentage. And, like you, I do not have any math to back my statements, but I would imagine that getting him to fold here and/or getting a free card out of the raise does not have to work all that often to prove profitable--although I am open to the reality that I am wrong here. (Keep in mind, I may not get the overcards to fold, but I still may get a free card out of the play)

--Rico

[me454555]

1) I don't see overcards 3 betting me here, thats just terrible poker. My opponents, although bad players, aren't the aggressive type of bad. They simply call too much and go too far w/hands

2) Even if I'm "dominated" by a hand like AQ, KJ, or AJ, I'm still getting pot equity from the if they call b/c I have a better hand.

Opponent has

AQ (6 outs)
QJ has 7 (4 Ts, 1.5 Js, and the BD flush)

Opponent has

AJ (6 outs)
QJ has (7.5 outs) and one very expensive 2nd best hand to pay me off with

Either way, I feel I'm ahead of the overcards and if I can't fold them, they might as well pay me off b/c we each need to hit our hand to win and I will hit mine more often then he hit his.

P.S. I read the results and still think raising the flop is correct b/c of the extra outs I have against AJ.