Important Ray Zee post some folks may have missed

[Nate tha' Great]

Ray Zee recently wrote the following in the other games forum:

[ QUOTE ]
basically if you dont play all games well you are in danger of becoming extinct.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was in a thread discussing the EV of various games to the skilled player.

Suppose that you're primarily a hold 'em player. Do you agree with Ray?

As for myself, I've been devoting a higher percentage of my online poker time recently to playing games other than limit hold 'em, but the motivation has been boredom (maybe that's putting it too negatively) rather than near-term or long-term profit. Stud/8 and no limit HE are the two games that I'm most interested in becoming adept at.

[BarronVangorToth]

A big reason why it's a good idea to play all games is the value-aspect for when you go to a casino and they have enhanced prize pools (oftentimes, thousands of dollars) in this tournament or that tournament -- if you only play one format, when those events come up and, say, they add $5,000 to the 1st place prize, that could be the equivalent of 100 players of dead money that you don't have to beat for those earnings.

Granted, if this scenario doesn't come up often for you in your travels....

I can't imagine a scenario in the next decade where Limit Hold 'em ring games aren't the standard -- over time, sure, some other game might evolve (just as Hold 'em took over for Stud) but I don't see that occuring as everyone now is playing Hold 'em and it will take something special to turn them away.

Perhaps Rebate Hold 'em....

Nah.


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)
"Creator of Rebate Hold 'em"

[Joe Tall]

For the same reason, bordem/burnout, I have been playing/studying, Limit O8, Stud, PLO/PLO8 over the last two months.

I'm not sure if Ray's quote is dated. Where game selection was critical and slim, years back. Now that Hold'em and poker has exploded, games are good and frequent at higher levels.

I find the mixture of games much more enjoyable than playing limit HE everyday.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Blarg]

There's always danger, but how much?

I have to agree that I don't see hold'em going anywhere for a very long time. Because of that, I'd feel the best thing to do is become the best hold'em player you think you're likely to become for a long time before spreading your attention elsewhere.

The best reason to learn other games is because sometimes other games can be juicier. Depends on the day, the hour. If the stud players are especially bad one day and the hold'em tables seem full of sharks, being able to take advantage is a good thing.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
For the same reason, bordem/burnout, I have been playing/studying, Limit O8, Stud, PLO/PLO8 over the last two months.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same and I've found I really enjoy Omaha in general.

[1800GAMBLER]

Right now, a player can earn a living online playing 4 3/6 games decently well. These games will never go dry.

[J.A.Sucker]

The reason that you should learn to play multiple games well is that if you want to make any real money in a B&M casino, you should play in the biggest good game in the house. At Commerce, the 100-200 hold em game is great, as mike l will attest, but I will offer that the 100-200 stud game is better, and the same dopes probably play the 200-400 stud game. Also, they have mix games that go even bigger. Ideally, you should be world-class in all games, but that's not realistic for most folks. However, even a decent player could skin that 100-200 stud game at the Commerce. You should also learn how to play shorthanded and in full games, since this is another opportunity to make money.

With internet poker being so good, you don't really have to play any other games right now, but who knows how long it'll last.

NL/PL poker is good to know, but frankly, I think you can almost always have a higher earn in the bigger limit games, barring some really soft donators being in the game. Stud 8 isn't really a very useful game, IMO, since it's hardly ever spread outside of a mix game.

If I move to LA and want to make money playing cards, I'm playing hold em, stud hi, and NL hold em (rarely). That'll get you all the money you'll need. If stud 8 comes back into vogue, then I can play it, too. The nice thing about the internet is you can get a feel for the different games pretty quick, and playing at the small stakes that are offered, you can learn pretty cheaply. However, I think that the opposition may not give you proper training for a real high stakes game that you'll encounter in the casino.

The most important tool you can gain is a mechanistic understanding of how limit poker works - it allows you to apply your knowledge to most any game and be better off than most of your opponents, and this is enough to get the money if you don't steam. The basic principles you need to learn are how to protect your hand, how to play multiway drawing hands, getting headsup, avoiding second best hands, and how to save/earn extra bets. All good players excel at these things, regardless of the game.

Edit: You should also learn to play tournaments, especially right now, since there's a lot of money to be made there.

[ChipWrecked]

Could you give some tips on how to protect your hand at limit?

Or: is this possible at low limit?

[Evan]

If you're talking about holdem, one of the easiest ways is forcing the field to coldcall 2 bets.

i.e. you're BB a few limpers and the button raises, everyone calls. You flop top 2...instead of leading out it is often better to check as most people will check to the preflop raiser. When the button bets, as he almost always will, you can check raise. This way people that flopped long shot draws like gutshots that may have been correct to call a bet if you lead out are now getting incorrect odds. Thus your hand is protected.

[nef]

Protecting your hand in a limit game doesn't necessarily mean making people fold, but it usually means giving them a choice between making a -EV call and folding. Check raising is often the best way to do this.

[cnfuzzd]

NOTE: the following method does not work in online games.

How To Protect Your Hand From Those 3/6 Maniacs

Step 1: Get dealt a good hand. Just good, great hands dont really need protection. For specifics on the distinction, i would recommend reading Small Stakes Hold Em, of HPFAP

Step 2: Allow the pot to get to your desired size. I usually go for about 8 BB's before i go on to step three.

Step 3: Convince the person to your right to bet with an inferior hand. His or her hand doesnt really have to be inferior, but it helps.

Step 4. Raise. The second easiest step of the whole plan. Step five is the easiest.

Step 5: Intimidation. As the table is contemplating calling your raise cold like they do every other raise, pull out your prefered handgun, and shoot some little old lady at another table. Anyone using any sort of walking or breathing assistance device will also work. After this, spin the chamber, while casually asking the table if they "really came here for some high-stakes gambling"

Step 6: Aquire competent legal defense.

Easy as attempted arson.

peace

john nickle

[J.A.Sucker]

You're right about cold-calling 2 bets, but your example is terrible. When you flop top two, you generally want all callers, so you would bet out and reraise when it came back to you, since you want to build a monster.

If you flop top pair with a good kicker, then you want people to fold if the pot is multiway and largeish. The main hand that you want people to fold is second or third pair, with live kickers, since these hands have 5 outs to beat you. In each case you'd like gutshots to fold, but the main issue is people hitting their "bastard 2 pair" and beating you. Note that this is worse when you have an overpair, since there's another couple of outs that can beat you.

Basically, when protecting your hand, you should realize that you want to save the pot, not your hand. Frequently, this requires waiting until the turn to make raises, since two BB's cold is usually a mistake to call, unless you have a flush draw or an open-ender.

Also, there's a good bit of use to keeping pots small, but this is another topic altogether.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
The most important tool you can gain is a mechanistic understanding of how limit poker works - it allows you to apply your knowledge to most any game and be better off than most of your opponents, and this is enough to get the money if you don't steam. The basic principles you need to learn are how to protect your hand, how to play multiway drawing hands, getting headsup, avoiding second best hands, and how to save/earn extra bets. All good players excel at these things, regardless of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. The fundamentals really are the same. In a lot of important ways, I think that limit hold 'em has much more in common with stud than with NLHE.

[Blarg]

I agree. Doyle said no-limit hold'em isn't a different level of poker, but a completely different kind of poker.

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
Stud 8 isn't really a very useful game, IMO, since it's hardly ever spread outside of a mix game.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if you're in that mixed game, I would guess that a large percentage of your earn would come during the stud/8 rounds, because most people play that game quite badly. Even the guys who are good at hold'em and/or high-only stud tend to stink at stud/8, in my experience. Also, stud/8 shows up as a side game at tournaments. So I'm told, anyway....

[dogmeat]

Ray may have gone a little overboard here, but I think he makes this remark based on his own experiences. When Omaha got popular, he was thumping the competition because he already played it. If you are a little ahead of the curve on a new game, the value to you of playing it is greatly increased by the many weak players you will meet, greet, and beat!

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif