Correct play of overcards?

Hand #1 - AQ/4 off B and I open raise, all fold to BB who calls (heads-up)

Flop came 8d 8h 7h and BB bets


Question # 1 - Should you (a) fold (b) raise (c) call

I think it's a raise or fold situation, so naturally I raised and BB just calls.


Turn is Js - BB checks

Question # 2 - Should you (a) bet (b) check and take free card

I think he either has a seven or a small pocket pair so I take the free card.


River is - Ace, Board is 8d 8h 7h - Js Ac

BB checks, I bet , BB calls with A7d and my queen kicker wins the pot.


NOTE: I win a NET of $130 but I'm NOT sure I played it right.

What do you guys think?


Hand #2 - AK/UTG and I open raise, all fold to BB who calls (heads-up)

Flop came 7 3 3 rainbow BB bets (She just started playing a short time but I could tell she wasn't a good player from some of the hands she showed down and she loved to gamble...HELLO :-)


Question # 1 - Should you (a) fold (b) raise (c) call

I really don't have a good clue but my experience has been most women bluff less than men. Does anyone agree with this?


I decided to take one off so I called.


Turn is 8 - BB bets (Now I really hate it) I call

Question # 2 - Should you (a) fold (b) call


River is -5, Board is 7 3 3 - 8 5

BB bets, Now I'm really asking myself what in the hell am I doing still in this pot?

Since I like to sleep at night, it was worth $40 to see how she played so I called

and she showed down 83o for a full house.

I DID NOT SAY NICE HAND! :-)

She quickly racked up her two racks and headed for the cashier :-) Great idea!


NOTE: I lost a NET of $140 but I'm NOT sure where I should have bailed out, but probably on the flop.

What do you guys think?

1. Hand one--played fine.

2. Hand two--when a fish bets on that kind of flop--FOLD!

Hand one: you played it just like I would have, and that's troubling. I think you played it fine, but, again, that's my opinion.


Hand two: I would have raised the flop and checked on the turn if she just called your raise. If she three bet the flop or bet the turn, I'd be done with it.

Hand #1:


#1. I agree that it's a raise or fold situation and I would have raised as well. BB would likely bet with a 7, or any pair (BB would/should have raised preflop with JJ or better). An 8 and BB would have most likely waited to check-raise on the turn. When BB just calls, I put him on a 7 or under-pair.


#2. Good evaluation, take the free card...a bet won't lose the BB and you're likely still behind.


I think you played this fine.


Hand #2:


#1. Since you said that the BB loves to gamble and is a poor player, she could be betting on all kinds of back-door draws, overcards, small pairs or a 7. She's likely ahead of you, and since she likes to gamble, you probably won't scare her into folding, so a raise does you no good, so just call.


#2. BB could've picked up a legit draw with that 8 or could still be ahead of you with the previously mentioned hands. Since you didn't raise, if she had a 3 she wouldn't try to check-raise you here, so that is another possibility, but I wouldn't put it high on my list...but you could be drawing dead, you've got 6 outs if not, and only getting 4-1 pot odds. I release the hand...next deal.


Having made the (IMO "bad") call, I don't call on the river...waste of money.


Back to battle,


Riker

Bob- You wrote: "I really don't have a good clue but my experience has been most women bluff less than men. Does anyone agree with this?" So...having said this, and not liking your hand much against the lady in the game, you STILL CALLED her all the way down? YIKES! /images/ohwell.gif "How do you like it now?". I've found that weak players and short stacked players are less likely to bluff, regardless of their sex. I only know a few good midlimit female players and most of them bluff less than my male counterparts. I suspect that the "highest-limit" female players bluff as much as the guys, but that is just a speculation on my part. I also suspect that the reason women may bluff less than men has to do with wanting to "play good" and to show down the best hand. It's a "girl thing", I guess and we girls like to be "macho" too sometimes.....Remember Babe's motto "Look Good, Play Good" /images/wink.gif

"my experience has been most women bluff less than men. Does anyone agree with this?"


My experience has been that most people use a few prominent examples and make generalizations that don't stand up to closer scrutiny. There are a lot more men players than women, so we see women bluff less often in total.


I have seen my father let 20 lousy male drivers do the most outrageous things without uttering a word and then a woman driver puts her turn signal on six-tenths of a second too late and he's railing on about lousy women drivers.


Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying, Bob. It may well be that women bluff less than men, and, after all, you said it has been your experience that women bluff less than men, so who am I to doubt this? But I'd sure like to see some scientific, specific evidence of this before concluding that it was so in general. After all, it may only be true when you're at the table! /images/smile.gif


Why did you think Hand 1 was a raise or fold situation (with which I agree) and Hand 2 was not?


Best regards,

Andy

I will start with Hand #2. I agree with your assessment about female players especially in this situation. I don't think you are getting the right pot odds to be taking off cards here unless you feel that you are getting played with. With the open pair on the table, you could even be drawing dead although this is extremely unlikely. But sometimes players simply bet their hand and don't go for fancy check-raises. I would fold on the flop.


In Hand #1, what do you know about the big blind? Again, I don't like the open pair and I dislike the two-flush. Unless you feel you have an image problem, my tendency is to give it up on the flop in a small, heads-up pot like this. Your hand will frequently not be best and even when it is, you will often lose anyway because you get sucked out on.


In a bigger games, where most of the pots are heads-up and guys like to move around on all kinds of stuff trying to outplay their lone opponent, it is important to take a stand in these situations and even play back. But in the smaller games, I think they play differently and I believe that you are better off saving your money for better gambling opportunities. Taking off cards to build one pair, even top pair/top kicker is simply not my cup of tea in these kinds of games especially when there are open pairs on the table and you are being bet into after showing strength.

Thanks Jim...I agree with your answer. The only problem I have with it, is that I may be considered by many to be "weak-tight," which you know I detest. Observant players will soon notice this and then they will start taking shots.


I admit two examples is not a large enough test to prove anything.

However, as it turned out I won $130 and lost $140 for a net loss of $10. I can live with that.

Had I played as you suggest, I would have lost $80 and at the same time appear to be defenseless.

Just a thought!!!

Why did I call....because I'm crazy!

But Babe, I sure taught her a lesson or two :-)

Interesting post!

Thanks

I had less respect for this player and thought she may be capable of getting cute because she knew that rags on the flop weren't likely to help me. Guess you could say I had a "bad hunch" :-)

First hand, I bet the turn in case the jack scares him. If I get raised, I probably fold.


2nd hand, raise after the flop, take a free card on the turn, fold the river. Something tells me she is not that smart to bet the river without a hand. People who love to gamble do not necessarily love to bluff, in my opinion.

Bob- you wrote: "I may be considered by many to be "weak-tight," . NOBODY could EVER consider you weak-tight, buddy. /images/biggrin.gif I am really looking forward to the day when you might actually fold a hand, however /images/smile.gif I'm sure Jim, Vince, Barry T and Tommy feel the same way. XXOO Babe

Geez, Andy. Pretty PC of you. A lot of cliches get to be cliches because they are true. Let's put it this way: in general, women at low to mid-limit hold 'em tables tend to make fewer moves. I think this is correct (again, just in MY experience) and since we aren't saying "women can't drive" or anything negative like that, I am not troubled by the generalization.


By the way, women CAN'T drive. Easy -- just kidding.

Scott, you wrote: " By the way, women CAN'T drive. Easy -- just kidding." Well....the Babe doesn't drive a car very well cuz she's always waving to cute boy drivers or putting on lipstick. /images/wink.gif However, the Babe can drive those cards, for sure! /images/biggrin.gif Ha,lol

Hand one was played just right but, if you believe the things that you say, how could you call even once with hand 2. I believe that Poker Babe is right in her assessment of female bluffing. The better female players will bluff appropriately but the fair to poor female players will tend to bluff less than their fair to poor male contemporaties.

I have found that every single old and overweight lady that I play against is a calling station. I don't even remember playing agianst a lady that fits this profile that wasn't a notable calling station. They are often at the extreme end of this class too.


I do however play lower limits (never higher than 10-20), but I have run into some medium to good female players (some capable of bluffing). Yet these players have never been old and overweight.


The calling stations all seem to be stubborn, set in there ways, and refuse to trust anyone. The funnuy thing is they also seem to take exception to me, even though I usually have one of the tightest images at the table (often weak tight). It's almost like, since I am a young guy these women think they have to keep me in line.


Maybe I just haven't been playing long enough


Joe

You speak of observant players. From your descriptions, neither of these players seem observant to me.


Just a thought.

My advice would be stop looking at these hands as overcards (drawing hands) and view them simply as made hands. This will make your decision making process easier, because when these hands are behind, they are often way behind (see hand #2 and even hand #1 if the flop had come 872.


Also, I think Jim Brier makes an excellant point about different limits. Generally, at lower limits AK calls down without a pair so even aggressive tricky players do not "take shots".


One more thing. You don't know me but if I bet into you in these situations and you muck, you will be losing in the long run.


Ok. One more thought. If you had an over pair with a pair on board and no one behind you, wouldn't you wait for the turn to raise? When you want to continue with ace high, why not play it the same way and fold to a 3 bet on the turn and check behind on the river?

"women at low to mid-limit hold 'em tables tend to make fewer moves"


Either you're not playing with the proper geese, or you're not the propaganda.


/images/wink.gif