When to slow down with JJ?

[Peace Frog]

I'm trying real hard to figure out why I suck so bad at online poker. I beat live games pretty good, but I'm the sucker of all suckers online. Seriously.. You could play K6o against me and kick my ass every time when I only play good cards. But here's a hand where my cards were far from good enough and I went off like a rocket.

UTG raises and I just call with JJ. I usually 3-bet with this hand, but the players in this game if they had a 2 bet hand then they had a 4 bet hand and re-raising was unlikely to reduce the field. Next after me re-raised, another called 3 cold and the UTG raiser caps it. I call.

The flop came 533r. UTG bet. What's my play? I raised, both players behind me called two cold. UTG re-raised. What's my play? I capped it trying to clean up my ace outs. Stupid, huh? Both players behind me folded.

The turn was a 7. UTG bet and I called. The river was a 9. UTG bet and I called. Why did I call? The only hand I could beat was TT (if this was a live poker anyway). But it's online and I never know what anyone has in their hand. So I called expecting to lose. Is that wrong? Of course, he had KK. I hate myself.

[bazooka_joe]

Once you commit to this big pot, you have to do whatever you can to win it..You can't possibly fold on the river.

You might consider not calling two more preflop though.

[Peace Frog]

That's what I thought. I had to do whatever I could to win it. I thought I had to clear out the single aces, kings, or queens behind me.

I never did call two cold on the flop. He bet I raised he 3 bet and I capped. Did you mean I might consider not capping it?

What I really want to know is, am I making it impossible for myslef to to beat online by playing this way?

[bazooka_joe]

You wrote: UTG raises and I just call with JJ. I usually 3-bet with this hand, but the players in this game if they had a 2 bet hand then they had a 4 bet hand and re-raising was unlikely to reduce the field. Next after me re-raised, another called 3 cold and the UTG raiser caps it. I call.

I'm confused...according to your description of the hand you called two more bets preflop...If you made a mistake on this hand, it was this...

[Noo Yawk]

[ QUOTE ]
That's what I thought. I had to do whatever I could to win it. I thought I had to clear out the single aces, kings, or queens behind me.

[/ QUOTE ]

The time to try and clear out overcards was preflop when you should have 3 bet it.

You lost to a better hand. How can you fault that? Pair over pair is extemely common, and no big deal.

[steveyz]

You were drawing dead here (I had your other 2 JJs /images/graemlins/smile.gif).

I remember thinking at the time that you really overplayed the hand. After the cold call preflop and that flop, what were you trying to represent? I think capping the flop was your biggest mistake. Sure you might fold some overcards behind you, but you have to consider that you are not ahead of UTG very often at all, unless you have seen him get out of line before. Most the time, you should either call down or call and fold the turn unimproved. There's no way you can get UTG to laydown a better hand here.

[steveyz]

No way do you fold this pre-flop for 2 more back to you. He's getting basically 8:1 IMMEDIATE odds to hit a set, which would get him plenty of action postflop, making his implied odds huge compared to the price he plays.

[bazooka_joe]

[ QUOTE ]
No way do you fold this pre-flop for 2 more back to you. He's getting basically 8:1 IMMEDIATE odds to hit a set, which would get him plenty of action postflop, making his implied odds huge compared to the price he plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds right, but two points...1. It's very likely that he's up against higher pockets thereby increasing the danger of losing to a higher set...Still and all, I agree, he's getting proper pot odds..

2. If he doesn't flop a set, how can he lay this down given no overcards? So the problem is that when he doesn't hit his set, he's liable to go for a bundle..

[steveyz]

A lot of solid players will cap here with AKs. His hand will be good here at least some of the time. But the key is not to give EXCESSIVE action if you just flop an overpair. This is where having a read on the raiser/capper should really help. Against some opponents, you can just lay this one down on the flop if you don't hit your set, although that should rarely be the case online.

[TStoneMBD]

did anyone consider calling preflop and folding after the flop bet? from your description of the table context i cant fathom how you dont put at least one of these guys on an overpair. you could call the flop bet hoping to rip a set off the turn, but you could get raised from behind as the 3better was capped and could easily have rockets. the utg guy could of course have ak but youre going to lose so many bets here against a very likely overpair. pretty easy fold to me.

[Richard Berg]

I know I suck at board reading, but...cleaning up ace outs? What does that mean? The ability to push someone off AK/AQ on the flop, then push the remaining guys off KK/QQ when an ace comes on the turn? Seems unlikely, and sucks hard when they actually have rockets...