Thoughts on this flop call?

[Sully]

This is a loosey, limpy Party Poker game, and I was on a good run. As it went around the table, I tried to analyze whether or not a call was appropriate here..with the two spades on board, I really only had four clean outs, and bad position. However, I could also see the argument for calling one more small bet. In short, I was torn. I read somewhere that when you're completely in doubt, call. It makes it more interesting.

So I did. If this was a regular play for me, is it a leak? If so, how bad? Any other comments on the hand are also welcome. I typically limp from the small blind here, as it offers a big check-raise opportunity on a good flop.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks,

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 folds, CO folds.

River: (7.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 7.50 BB, won by Hero.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to Hero.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows Ac Kh (two pair, aces and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.50 BB. </font>

[mike l.]

the question you should be asking yourself is why you bet the river. no wait that's not quite it. let me retry.

the question goes like this:

"how can i train myself to check this river and induce a bluff?"

there.

[1800GAMBLER]

Against players who will call with their single Kc high missed flush/low pocket pairs yet rarely bet it he should still bet.

Anyhow the biggest mistake in this is not raising preflop. Considering a flop fold is a bigger mistake than not considering inducing a bluff on the river.

A lot of thought should be given to the turn, well, more thought should go to that than the flop.

[Nate tha' Great]

Well, the pot's pretty big thanks to your preflop raise, so I think you can make a loose ca-

Wha?

[Sully]

This is a good example of why you can learn so much from posting hands here. No matter how many times I'd read it in a book, and how many times I'd seen it explained here, I was still limping with AKo. I finally understand the importance of raising the AKo in the big blind here.

I also took a look in Small Stakes Holdem, and same thing. AKo is always a raise in ANY unraised pot. I'm slowly starting to get it.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a good example of why you can learn so much from posting hands here. No matter how many times I'd read it in a book, and how many times I'd seen it explained here, I was still limping with AKo. I finally understand the importance of raising the AKo in the big blind here.

I also took a look in Small Stakes Holdem, and same thing. AKo is always a raise in ANY unraised pot. I'm slowly starting to get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you're just giving up too much here by not raising. I used to occasionally limp with big offsuit hands in on the Button or in the blinds against large fields, the argument being that the limp better concealed my hand, among other things, but that was before I realized that you could pick your cards up and press them against your forehead so hard that the ink rubbed off and tattooed the AK on your forehead, and these guys would still pay off with A4o and underpairs and all sorts of crap.

[Sully]

I completely agree. I'm learning that in the long run, the money you make by betting and raising will far outweigh the money you make by "concealing" your good hands.

It's my play with AK when I miss the flop that I need to work on. I know it depends upon the situation (position, # of opponents, texture, etc) but if you miss the flop completely, how often do you bet the flop? How bad is a check?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
It's my play with AK when I miss the flop that I need to work on. I know it depends upon the situation (position, # of opponents, texture, etc) but if you miss the flop completely, how often do you bet the flop? How bad is a check?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a check would be the right play here for example, although there's a somewhat tempting argument for check-raising if you're facing a single bet from late position.

[Garland]

I think you were fine in peeling off one card to see an A or K. You're getting 9:1 on your call getting about 7:1 to see an A or K on the turn and have good implied odds as well. Also realize you have a backdoor straight draw.

Is there a reason not to raise preflop?

[ QUOTE ]
Hero shows Ac Kh (two pair, aces and sevens).

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't show your cards when everyone folds. Make them pay to see it.

Garland

[Senor Choppy]

Always raise AK preflop. There are many reasons, not of which you need to know, as long as you do it.

In an unraised pot with just overcards like this, calling a bet on the flop sucks big time.

These are huge mistakes, the rest are minor by comparison.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, the pot's pretty big thanks to your preflop raise, so I think you can make a loose ca-

Wha?


[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

This forum rules.

[bisonbison]

Don't show your cards when everyone folds. Make them pay to see it.


It's a converter thing. I gotta rephrase that for when there's no showdown. It assumes that any hand it knows was shown, and it always knows the hero's hand.

[Tosh]

No offence but if you are still limping AK there you are in the wrong game. You should have learnt that long ago.

[mplspoker]

Your idea of just calling with AK in small blind is rediculous in my opinion. You have the best hand - get the bets in preflop... You mentioned it gives you a check raise opportunity on the flop, but no question over time you will make more just raising preflop. Isn't close. If you can explain, please do...

[mmcd]

I think in certain types of games, there is some merit to just completing/checking AKo in the blinds in multiway pots. The party 15 usually isn't one of them, but I think this is far from an "always raise" situation when out of position.

[the_closer]

I would lean toward just calling the sb as well. If this is a leak in my game then I need to fix it. Let me go through why I would just call and then I would be curious as too what my faulty reasoning is.

1) As is if I complete the pot stands at $105. If we raise the the pot will be at $195-$210 depending on if the bb calls. If we flop an A or K and bet out the whole way then our opponents will have correct odds to call with middle pair to the river. They cant possibly make a mistake. --- allusion to Theory of Poker

2) If we raise, miss the flop and check then we need to take a card off ourselves with less than the best hand. If we hit our hand on the turn or river we can't bet out esp. with the ace for fear of our opponents having a 2-per.

3) Out of position against aggressive opponents with no pair.

My Default play with A-Koff in this situation is too call the sb. If an ace or K hits then I go for a c/r on the flop. if not most likely check fold unless the bet comes from late positon.


Now if the AK was suited I would lean more toward raising just because the hand plays slightly better multi-way.

Let me know what holes are in this line of reasoning and I will adjust my play accordingly. My guess is that a decision like this is very game dependant, and there is not always a clear cut answer.

Thanks

[OrangeHeat]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is far from an "always raise" situation when out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Orange

[OrangeHeat]

[ QUOTE ]
2) If we raise, miss the flop and check then we need to take a card off ourselves with less than the best hand. If we hit our hand on the turn or river we can't bet out esp. with the ace for fear of our opponents having a 2-per.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
3) Out of position against aggressive opponents with no pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

Incredibly weak tight thinking.

You raise preflop becuase your hand is better than your opponents and you gain EV when they put more money in with worse hands.

Worry about the flop when it gets there.

Orange

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this is far from an "always raise" situation when out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Orange

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.
mmcd

[steveyz]

If you're gonna play this, I'd check raise the flop. This board is very likely to have hit no one. And if you check-raise, you could possibly fold someone with A2/A3/K2/K3, cleaning up some of your outs. Most of the time, since this pot was not raised pf, I might just fold and move on.

[OrangeHeat]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is far from an "always raise" situation when out of position.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ak against five limpers is NOT far from an "always raise" situation. It is as close as they come. If you don't believe this you have some fundamental misunderstandings of the game we here call poker.

Orange

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]


In an unraised pot with just overcards like this, calling a bet on the flop sucks big time.

These are huge mistakes, the rest are minor by comparison.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's so wrong. Folding here would be a mistake. If players don't see how folding here is a mistake i would be very surprised if they beat the 15/30.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
, but I think this is far from an "always raise" situation when out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

With AQo, maybe theres a better case, but AKo is most definitely an always raise here.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]

Now if the AK was suited I would lean more toward raising just because the hand plays slightly better multi-way.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not raising AKo is bad, not raising AKs is criminal.

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]

1) As is if I complete the pot stands at $105. If we raise the the pot will be at $195-$210 depending on if the bb calls. If we flop an A or K and bet out the whole way then our opponents will have correct odds to call with middle pair to the river. They cant possibly make a mistake. --- allusion to Theory of Poker


[/ QUOTE ]

They may not be making a mistake, but you're still making money off them. If on the flop someone has 5 outs (to 2 pair) and has odds to call your bet, you still want them calling you. You will beat them 80% of the time (unless they have Ax/Kx), and they're putting in just as much money as you are. If they have you reverse dominated, well...so be it.

[ QUOTE ]

2) If we raise, miss the flop and check then we need to take a card off ourselves with less than the best hand. If we hit our hand on the turn or river we can't bet out esp. with the ace for fear of our opponents having a 2-per.


[/ QUOTE ]

This seems pretty weak-tight, especially the "fear of 2 pair" part. On your T72 flop, what if they have 88? AQ? 87/JT? Not everyone's in there with Ax, and those that are aren't guaranteed to have paired "x" on the flop. If they have, you'll have outs on the river.