QJs

[Trix]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero ?

Will give my thoughts later.
Who bets and who checks the flop btw and why ?

[Valuebettingtheriver]

Id check then see the action. the 3 hearts gives you a backdoor. with a bet and a re-raise you are better off calling. If there was just one bet I would raise. Id check the turn and if a heart came I would re-raise. What would you guys do? is 3-betting the correct play? I dont think you have the best hand and raising here wont protect it.

[Joe Tall]

With the PFR to your immediate left and the pot realtively small, I bet the flop. Had the PFR been in later position and you had more opponents (bigger pot), c/r is clearly the right play.

Now that you are stuck facing two bets, getting 9:2, I may call. You'll make up seeing the turn w/your backdoor-flush outs.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[nepenthe]

There are only 3 players in. I bet the flop and hope the PFR raises out the CO. But having checked, you're in a tough spot out of position. If you're going to continue, and I think you should at least see the turn, I'm actually inclined to 3-bet in hopes of raising out the PFR. The CO may be raising with a worse hand in an attempt to get it heads-up. Play back. If either the PFR or CO caps, you can fold the turn if no Q, J, or /images/graemlins/heart.gif comes. If PFR folds and CO calls, bet the turn regardless of what comes. If PFR and CO both call...I see the turn card and decide.

[Garland]

I prefer leading the flop. If it's raised by UTG+1 and reraised by CO, I think you can release your hand.

Garland

[Joe Tall]

Bump for the morning crowd. It's not often where the flop action on each end is debateable. Let's see your comments boys.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[easypete]

I'm leaning towards betting out on the flop and hoping that UTG+1 raises to eliminate CO.

Since you didn't, I would fold the flop. There is no real draw on the board (except a low gutshot, which is unlikely here w/ the pf raise). You have 6.5 outs (2 Q, 3 J, and 1.5 for backdoor flush). You are getting 4.67:1 from the pot on a 6.2:1 draw and you are not closing the action.

[mikeyKay]

i guess you were going for a check raise on the flop and things went horribly wrong when CO raised. not knowing much about CO's play, i can see him only raising with somewhat of a made hand, due to the fact that this is a pretty bare board for draws. UTG+1 can have a number of hands, and you cant really start elimating things until you see his action after you. i think i would probably bet out the flop, but given what really happened, i think raising or calling is running pretty equal. raising runs the risk of somebody capping, but if you just call there is a good chance that UTG+1 will raise it up...so im kind of torn on this one. i still have no big reason to believe im really beat on this hand. UTG+1 can have AK, or JJ or a number of bad hands, and CO could have something like Q 10 or even weaker, just trying to get it heads up with mid pair...so i think i like idea of raising more. if it gets capped, i check fold unimproved, if not capped, ill lead out, and prolly just call a raise down to the river, but that still all depends on the cards and the other players moves...knowing more about UTG+1's raising standards would be helpful...good post.

-mike

[sublime]

Tough one

I would say bet the flop and hope it gets raised. But with such a small field, does going for the check raise have merits also?

I am sure argurments can be made for both lines of play, but I will foucus on just the flop action. Without a specific read on UTG1 3-betting doesnt serve much purpose, so I say call.

Without the backdoor flush, does anybody fold *this* flop (with this line of play)?

I would

[sthief09]

I agree with your comments. With another guy in, I generally bet into the PFR, who will often autoraise and get the pot heads up, making it cheap to get to showdown unimproved.

Faced with 2 bets on a completely uncoordinated board, I'd muck. There's definitely a chance he's ahead, but I don't think it's big enough. maybe I've become weak-tight in my absense.

[sublime]

maybe I've become weak-tight in my absense.

Yeah since it lasted so long /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[arkady]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah since it lasted so long

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, seriously! "absence", hah! i have spent more time away in a bathroom than sthief09's absence from poker.

[sublime]

lol, seriously! "absence", hah! i have spent more time away in a bathroom than sthief09's absence from poker.

A lot of soul searching can be done in a 3-4 day period. Just ask Kobe after the charges were filed /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[arkady]

UTG+1's bet is standard and could mean very little including TT, AK, AJ, etc. My only fear here would be domination, specifically QKs/QA. Its tough with out having any reads on CO and his/her cold calling standards. There is also a good chance that CO might have something like TT, JJ as well and just trying to shove you out. So...

I 3 bet and push UTG's overcards out (hopefully that is what they are) and decide turn action depending on what UTG+1 (hope he folds) and CO (hopefully just calls) does.

Calling here is the worst option in my opinion, by 3 betting you are at least making it incorrect for UTG to see the turn and giving yourself a better chance to win and show control at the table.

[arkady]

I will ask him as soon as I get home from work.

[sthief09]

I'm still not playing (except once--oops), but I got re-hooked here, which has to stop. [censored], I'm posting from work again. this is exactly why I did my best to not even look at the site.

and the "absense" thing was a joke, you a-holes /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

is it possible to get the crack itch from poker?

[Rico Suave]

One advantage of checking with the intention of raising the bet by the preflop raiser is that it can often better define the preflop raisers hand and can make the hand easier/cheaper for hero to play. If hero c/r and the preflop raiser 3-bets, it is very likely that he is behind (opponent dependent). Most opponents will not 3-bet in this spot without AQ or an overpair--so our hero may be able to dump on the turn unimproved. On the other hand, if the pfr just calls the flop raise, it is more likely that hero is ahead, and a turn bet may take it down.

If you bet and get raised by the pfr, that really does not necessarily make this easier or cheaper to play the hand out. Many pfr's will auto raise in this spot...with over cards or a made hand. So what is hero's play? 3 betting is probably best, but now he is subject to the flop cap, or the turn c/r by a better hand. Suddenly it is getting expensive to play this one out. Or if hero decides to just call the flop raise, with the intention of calling down, pfr may decide to take a free card on the turn with his AK.

Obviously, I have ignored the other opponent for the purposes of the above rambling. With other players in, the analysis obviously changes. In the specific hand here, I would most likely bet the flop...but with only 1 opponent on a very raggedy board, perhaps a c/r is a reasonble approach.

I probably fold here when it is 2 back to me...but that may be wrong.

--Rico

[chief444]

One vote for leading into the pf raiser on this flop (fairly small pot and CO still in) and one vote for folding to the flop raise with the line taken. I think I'd likely 3-bet rather than call the flop raise to get heads-up. But I would hate seeing CO cap. With this uncoordinated of a board and with a flop 3-bet a possibility I really don't like the idea of cold-calling.

[arkady]

[ QUOTE ]
this is exactly why I did my best to not even look at the site.


[/ QUOTE ]

"Losers always whine about their best..."

The quote makes sense and no I am not calling you a loser, but clearly you need to work on your self control there.

[Trix]

The reason I checked was that I thought I would be able to lay down safely on a turn blank after my CR if I was 3bet by the pfr. Thinking about it just seems like UTG bets, CO calls, wont happen very often when the board is this uncordinated. I was also unsure about him raising AK, Most people will probably still raise JJ-99 though ?
If UTG bets, CO folds and I CR it´s not great either as he may pop me on the turn.

If CO had been very loose, meaning that he will almost allways take one off for one bet and coldcall lots of hands preflop. Would check-raising the flop then be prefered as you can lay down unimproved on the turn if UTG 3bets.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]

and the "absense" thing was a joke, you a-holes /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

is it possible to get the crack itch from poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

Try Preparation H /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[sublime]

is it possible to get the crack itch from poker?

Yes /images/graemlins/grin.gif

And I read your original post about "taking a break" and knew you would back. You have ability and passion, its a no brainer /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[jluker7]

I would fold. If CO didn't raise I would have called.

I would have also bet flop.

Im putting CO on something like small poket pair since he Cold Called, with nothing in the pot, maybe AQ, KQ, or QJ.

Although I dont know the players at the table. A call preflop then raise into the better is a decent hand usually.

I would have bet the flop and folded to the 3 bet.

[jluker7]

Giving that I just read your post that CO is aggresive I would raise and see if UTG caps. If not I would bet turn.

If raised there I would fold. Or call down. Up to you.

[StellarWind]

First flop action:

There has been a lot of emphasis on playing this flop to force out Cutoff. I think this is mistaken because when we are ahead Cutoff has very few outs. There are very few draws for him to have. He may have an overcard but very often UTG+1 has the same overcard. Cutoff almost always has 0-3 independent outs with the emphasis being on the zero.

I'm happy to checkraise the flop and hope to trap Cutoff in the hand.

Second flop action:

I interpret the raise to mean that Cutoff is protecting a pair. From his perspective all pairs look about the same--they beat AK but not AA/KK/QQ--so I don't have any strong reason to believe he can beat TPGK.

I reraise in hopes of putting UTG+1 out of the hand. I may bail on the turn if I don't like developments.

[House-Lion]

The QJ suited makes this preflop call possible but still it's very marginal I would say, often you will be dominated and there are not enough players in this pot and you are only getting 1:6 from the pot against an early-position raiser.

CO's cold-call; generally cold-callers come with all sorts of bad hands including the any-ace or even worse.

Flop-play. I would always bet the flop, hoping to get raised by utg+1 and then get it heads-up.

When it's raised back here I would fold. Pot is just offering 2 to 9 with risk of even more raising and that QJs very well could be drawing very slim or even dead.

You may have the best hand now but oponents will often draw out on you, most likely you have the second or third best hand right now so I think folding is more EV+ compared to raising.

[Trix]

I folded btw, CO bet a blank on the turn and UTG folded aswell.

[BigEndian]

Bet the flop, fold to the raise in a pot not worth losing sleep over and a best case scenario of facing QT.

- Jim

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
One advantage of checking with the intention of raising the bet by the preflop raiser is that it can often better define the preflop raisers hand and can make the hand easier/cheaper for hero to play. If hero c/r and the preflop raiser 3-bets, it is very likely that he is behind (opponent dependent). Most opponents will not 3-bet in this spot without AQ or an overpair--so our hero may be able to dump on the turn unimproved. On the other hand, if the pfr just calls the flop raise, it is more likely that hero is ahead, and a turn bet may take it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

My take on this is fairly opponent dependent. A wily/faux wily type is going to just call the check raise with AA, KK, QQ or AQ a goodly percentage of the time, with the intention of popping the turn. (Assuming the cutoff had folded to PFR's bet of course).

Personally, I think leading out is the bet play, as you have a pretty good shot at being ahead of PFR, and would prefer to be heads up with him. If it get's raised and reraised and the CO isn't a total maniac, I think it is a comfortable fold.

I think 3 handed makes it a tougher decision (5-handed is an easy bet, as PFR will raise and get it down to 2 or 3).