General River Question...

[x2ski]

Hello All,

Please let me know what you think of this situation:

You hold AA preflop, you flop a set but there is a possible flush draw for any opponents. The river makes a possible flush for someone still in the hand. Your river bet is raised, and per the board the only thing that can beat you is a flush... do you call?

You hold AK preflop and flop a pair of kings but there is a possible flush draw for any opponents. The river makes a possible flush for someone still in the hand. Your river bet is raised, and per the board the only thing that can beat you is a flush... do you call?

I could go on and on but that would get pretty boring. The main question is, when you likely have the best hand until the river and the river card most likely makes someone's flush and you get raised, do you call? Do you even bet out?

I know, I know... "it depends." But I've been thinking that these calls at the end may be adding up to a serious leak, because in my case 9 times out of 10 they've hit their flush.

All comments appreciated. Thanks!

[Rezvani]

Well it DOES depend, it depends a lot on what kind of betting is going on after the flop, and on the turn, and how many people are still in. And whether its a 4 flush on the board or just a 3 flush, etc. etc.

It depends on a lot of things and your post drastically over-simplifies the question--which suggests to me that you aren't paying enough attention to the details I've listed.

If there were hard and fast rules based on such limited information as you provide, then anyone could play poker at it would be as boring as checkers or tic-tac-toe.

Also, I suggest you start keeping track of the times you DONT lose to a flush compared to the number of times you DO. I think you will find that when you actually keep a tally, you are losing less often than you think.

Losing to a river flush leaves a lasting negative impression. Winning with AA is to be expected and, although thrilling, fades from your memory a lot faster.

My advice is to pay very close attention to the betting patterns when you lose to a flush (study the hand histories if necessary) as opposed to those times you win. I'll bet you can figure out what is wrong.

[Noo Yawk]

Call. And Keep value betting. Your not going to see the hand you fear 9 out of 10 times like you state. It only seems that way.
Instead of thinking "the only thing you can beat is a flush", start thinking "the only thing that beats me is a flush". It's a huge difference in thought process.

[RunDownHouse]

Well, how about generalizing the situation even further, instead of less?

Suppose you have a strong hand which you are leading on every street into one opponent. The river completes a draw, whether it be flush or straight. Do you lead again? Or check/call?

How does that change when facing more than one opponent?

How does your decision change when the completed draw is a flush? When the completed draw is a straight? When the river completes both straight AND flush draws?

Obviously a lot of the answers are still, "It depends," but, in general, I would answer so:

Against one opponent, when the completed draw is a straight, go ahead and bet out. As you add more opponents, be more and more inclined to check/call. If the completed draw is a flush, be more inclined to check/call.

I play 6-max tables almost exclusively, so maybe that taints my thinking some. But often, if I'm leading into 2 or 3 opponents, and the river brings a flush, I'm simply going to check/call. Am I giving up value here? My thinking, and I've heard this from others before, is that if they missed their draw, they won't call a bet anyways. If they hit their draw, I'll get raised.

[x2ski]

Thanks for your reply... I hope you don't think I'm complaining about bad beats or anything like that, 'cause it seems like you got that impression.

I DID oversimplify it because I guess I'm not very imaginative... I just threw 2 simple hands together in my head and typed them in. They weren't specific situations, although I'm sure they have happened.

I pay plenty of attention, although I DO mulitable, so I admit not as much attention as some. So, by "paying attention," I see from the board, how many players are still in, and the betting on each street that the raiser most likely hit his flush (with 3 on the board btw). Do you call?

Hope this clarifies things, and I apologize for wasting some people's time.

[x2ski]

Great answer... Thank you very much!

I guess I don't like to show weakness, but in certain situations, as you decribed, check/call is the answer.

Sorry, I'm still learning /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ewile]

post some specific hands in the appropriate forum to get more specific feedback.