What THREE books would you recommend to a brand new player....

[BarronVangorToth]

My buddy Bruce and I have been playing poker with our friends for quite a long period of time. One of our other buddies has asked Bruce and I to name three books he should read. He wants three books. Not four. Not two. Three. He watches poker on TV -- shocking! -- and has watched us all play. He only cares about Hold 'em since that's what he sees primarily on TV and what most people play at Foxwoods.

With that said, let me say the three books Bruce and I recommended. What I'd like to know is if we put him in the wrong direction.

Let me know which THREE you'd recommend, if they're different from us.

Note: we also suggested he read the books in the following order -- mistake?

The Theory of Poker
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1880685000/qid=1092685159/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/102-4430588-1385760?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Small Stakes Hold 'em
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1880685329/qid=1092685209/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-4430588-1385760

Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1880685221/qid=1092685159/sr=8-2/ref=pd_ka_2/102-4430588-1385760?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Those three in that order for the novice player who has seen TV hold 'em but wants to play "real" hold 'em at a casino and with us...

I've read hundreds of books and most are horrid. Those three we agreed were the best in that order. Or did we completely throw him off the cliff before he began?

Thoughts?

Thanks!


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[scotnt73]

winning low limit holdem
holdem poker for advanced players
theory of poker

this is what i just reccomended to my brother last month in that order. i havent read ssh yet. it may replace top in my top 3 in the future if it lives up to expectation. i would still reccomend top to anyone though.

[uaw420rook]

Read in the listed order.
Theory of Poker
ITH by Matthew Hilger
SSH

When he has proved he can play well and moves up in limits, than he should study HEAP.
Thats my two cents
P.S. The pre-flop chart, in Hilgers book is the easiest to follow. It includes the nessary limpers to play by position in regards to your pocket holdings. It was the best thing for my game development, when I was starting out. Really saved me alot of money, by having the right odds to play my pockets.

[theghost]

WLLH by Jones is a good beginner book - easy to understand, and good advice for someone who is just starting out. Incorrect application of the advanced techniques in 2+2 books can get a new player in trouble.

TOP - no explanantion necessary.

SSH - not for beginners, but hopefully by the time you get to your 3rd book you're picking something up /images/graemlins/smile.gif


Going beyond the 3 book limit (and into the realm of hearsay) I've heard that ITH is very good, Caffione's middle limit book is good, and finally, I'd say HEPFAP as he progresses in limits.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
The Theory of Poker
Small Stakes Hold 'em
Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players

Those three in that order for the novice player who has seen TV hold 'em but wants to play "real" hold 'em at a casino and with us...

[/ QUOTE ]
Those would be my choices only if the guy were exceptionally bright and already good at at least one other game (chess, backgammon, whatever).

Otherwise, for a person of above-average intelligence, I'd go:

1. Internet Texas Hold 'em
2. Theory of Poker
3. Small Stakes Hold 'em

For the average person:

1. Winning Low-Limit Hold 'em
2. Small Stakes Hold 'em
3. Theory of Poker

[avatar77]

I agree with this list (assuming you are mostly a fixed limit hold'em player).

You just don't need WLLH anymore. WLLH is a great book but if you can only have 3, you can't pick WLLH because you can easily out grow it.

ITH, SSH and TOP each covers so much ground that it would take you years to read and reread, apply and master the concepts in these books. If you only had these three books and read and reread them well...you would be doing better than most who have 30 books but read each only once.

[Clarkmeister]

I have many friends learning how to play. I currently have them on a 5-book rotation.

1. WLLH - Jones
2. TOP - Sklansky
3. Middle Limit Holdem - Brier and Ciaffone
4. Small Stakes Holdem - Eddie et al.
5. HPFAP - Sklansky & Malmuth

I am *very* comfortable with this progression.

[Jman28]

Hey Clark,

I'm a SnG player right now, and I've read HPFAP, and TOP (I guess out of order).. I've also read Super/System, TPFAP, and NL + PL Poker-rueben/ciaffone.

I want to switch to limit, or at least try it. How do you recommend I go about it? Thanks a lot. I enjoy your posts.

-Jman28

[Clarkmeister]

I'd skip WLLH in your case. Read MLH, SSH and add in Feeney's Inside the Poker Mind.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
5-book rotation

[/ QUOTE ]
Cheater.

[Clarkmeister]

"cheater"

Oh well. I figure anyone so tight with money that they won't buy the 2 more books (and its not like I expect them to buy all 5 at once) doesn't have enough gamble in them to win at holdem anyways. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Blarg]

Theory of Poker is not a first-time poker book. It takes some serious study, the writing is dense and not terribly user-friendly, and a lot of the concepts would fly over the head of a brand new player. Additionally, it uses examples from many different types of poker, which would be confusing to someone who may not even know the rules to one type of poker all that well. HEPFAP is an even worse book for a beginner by far.

1. Internet Texas Hold'em -- probably the best all around hold'em book. Extremely clear, balanced, and concise, and its material will take you well past the lower limits.

Take some time off and play before reading anything else.

2. Theory of Poker -- Now you're ready to digest something like this. Less will go over your head and be lost, or just be confusing.

3. Small Stakes Hold'em by Miller. The easiest of these books by far to misunderstand and get in a whole lot of trouble by not applying correctly. Ed himself says it's not a first book, and he's 100% correct. The concepts are necessary for players of any level of stakes to understand. A great way to open up your game and expand your profitability.

You could mix and match the order of 2 and 3 or even read them at the same time.

Eventually, HEPFAP can come in as a very distant 4th. But there's no reason to jump into your doctorate when you still need to be working on your undergraduate core curricula, and those three books will give anyone an awful lot to think about and try out in practice for a very long time.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
"cheater"

Oh well. I figure anyone so tight with money that they won't buy the 2 more books (and its not like I expect them to buy all 5 at once) doesn't have enough gamble in them to win at holdem anyways. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


First, thanks to everyone (including you) for the replies thusfar... I probably will be doing some semblance of a modification to my recommendations and the order. With that said, as to the "three" bit -- as I noted above, I have WAY too many books and WAY too many poker books. My buddy, upon seeing this, did NOT want me recommending everything ... yet, still, even from the horrendous books (of which most are) I was like, This chapter is good from this book, this is good from that one, etc etc...

...and he was overwhelmed.

"Three books, Barron," he said. "Just three. Exactly three. Just three."

So ... three it is.

For now, at least.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[chson]

It's written poorly making the information difficult to digest. Being clear and thorough should be first priority in any instructional text. Also, some of the chapters are flat-out incorrect. For example, various discussions have proven that the Loose Games chapter teaches techniques that'll hinder your play in loose games. The authors reluctantly agree but respond by stating that the loose games they're specifically addressing have to meet several other requirements. Unfortunately these other requirements (good post-flop players, etc.) are not mentioned anywhere in the book! Essentially anyone who reads the Loose Games chapter without reading these forums will be using the techniques incorrectly. At some point you have to wonder what other chapters in the book require adjustments that are only mentioned on this internet forum.

[mistrpug]

[ QUOTE ]
I have many friends learning how to play. I currently have them on a 5-book rotation.

1. WLLH - Jones
2. TOP - Sklansky
3. Middle Limit Holdem - Brier and Ciaffone
4. Small Stakes Holdem - Eddie et al.
5. HPFAP - Sklansky & Malmuth

I am *very* comfortable with this progression.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it interesting that you recommend Middle Limit Holdem before Small Stakes Holdem. May I ask what your reasonong behind this is? You would think it would be the opposite.

[Jman28]

.

[Dr. Shrinker]

1. WLLH by Jones

2. ITH by Hilger

3. SSHE by Miller et al

My 2¢

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting that you recommend Middle Limit Holdem before Small Stakes Holdem. May I ask what your reasonong behind this is? You would think it would be the opposite.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think SSH is a more advanced book conceptually than MLH.

In an oversimplified nutshell, I think it is important to have a strong overall strategic approach to the game as a foundation. Despite their respective flaws, WLLH offers a great strategic approach to the game for beginners and MLH is the perfect natural extension of that.

SSH and HPFAP meanwhile are IMO more tactical in nature. I feel most players need to focus on a fundamental strategic approach to the game before worrying about more sophisticated tactical maneuvers that they don't necessarily understand or correctly apply.

Essentially, I think it is good for players to begin with a somewhat weak-tightish mindset that then grows into a more sophisticated attacking strategy. Most newer players have a natural tendency to be loose and aggressive. WLLH followed by MLH should help hammer home a nice weak tight mindset and overall strategy that can then begin to "plug in" the more advanced tactical ideas contained in SSH and HPFAP.

I add TOP in after WLLH because the ideas involved there are too important to overlook once someone has played a few hours and read that initial book. I don't expect my friends to "get" TOP fully that soon in their poker career, but it forces them to look at poker in a dry analytical manner instead of in a "the game is about psyching out your opponents, bluffing and making reads" manner.

Hope this makes sense.

[bonanz]

[ QUOTE ]
Hope this makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

makes perfect sense. and clarkmeisters 5 books and order to read them is the absolute best "curriculum" I have seen laid out. I knew there was a good order to read specific books for beginning players who have someone to give them pointers and this is it. I've never really ptu much thought into it because i've just read books in whatever order I learned of them.

this is why clarkmeister pwns these boards lol.

And I absolutely agree about learning to be weak tight first. If you have absolutely no idea what you are doing, wllh, if nothing else, teaches you how to fold. then the fat dose of what poker is all about with top. then the more advanced (arguably weak tight) MLH helps you learn how to think through hands. By this point you should be solid but probably slightly on the passive side. but ssh steps in and changes all of that. then hpfap comes in last to round out your limit holdem game with some of the most advanced strategic concepts in holdem that are necessary for higher level of thinking and tougher opponents.

If you don't know anything about holdem and want to learn, this is probably the best list of reading in order I ever seen laid out. There are numerous posts about peoples favorite books, or top 10's or whatever. but i think this is the definitive list for limit holdem. Any book you read after that will only make you a stronger beast.

bonanz

ps. i have seen many people recommend ITH by hilger as a sort of replacement for WLLH. I have never read this and cannot speak about it, but am curious about anyone who has read it and how they feel about it compared to WLLH as an aspiring players first book.

[John White]

If you're really forcing only three books, and the five book rotation is out the window?

I'd say:

HEPFAP
ITPM
SSHE

This is backdoor cheating, as I'd use the preflop discussion from HEPFAP as one book during that beginning period and the rest as he becomes more experienced. SSHE's discussion of post-flop play is more cogent than HEPFAP's. I like TOP, but it's a lot of theory. I want to read a paper with a title like "Applied Game Theory in Hold 'Em," not short pieces on how cool game theory is without enough examples... By the time anyone need to read TOP, they won't worry about three book limits.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
ps. i have seen many people recommend ITH by hilger as a sort of replacement for WLLH. I have never read this and cannot speak about it, but am curious about anyone who has read it and how they feel about it compared to WLLH as an aspiring players first book.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's better written and organized, has lots of great hand examples and quizzes, and is far less likely to make you weak-tight. It also gives advice that lasts well beyond low limits.

[BugsBunny]

I'll agree with this with one proviso. If someone has no concept of the game at all WLLH may be a better first choice. It's an easier read and doesn't require quite as much thinking. It's also thinner and therfore not as intimidating.

I would say, in that case, read WLLH, play a couple of hundred hands, then read ITH and never refer to WLLH again. If the person can handle it right off the bat though I'd skip WLLH and just go with ITH.

Mason says that some of the preflop advice in ITH is too loose when it comes to coldcalling preflop raises and gives an example of AQo. There is, of course, validity to this criticism and AQo should really be a raise or fold situation. But overall the advice is good. (He also has you calling a raise with JJ rather than reraising, this has been debated previously. While not necessarily optimum play, depending on game conditions, it's not a huge mistake for sure and is even correct play at times (see HEPFAP for more - somewhere towards the end of the EP section)) His preflop charts are detailed and easy to follow. The postflop sections are more detailed and better than WLLH. His sections on pot odds and discounting outs are also good.

He explains and uses concepts involving deciding whether or not to stay in a hand based on size of the pot, number of players in the hand, pot odds etc.

The foundation laid by ITH is solid enough to carry you on past the weakest games. You won't have to "unlearn" as much as you would with WLLH and concepts from books like MLH, SSH, TOP, and HEPFAP will be easier to digest and understand after reading ITH.

IMHO ITH is a great beginners book. If WLLH is preschool then ITH is grade school and the rest are high-school to college and beyond.

So if they're capable of skipping pre-school they can pass on WLLH and use ITH instead.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
I have many friends learning how to play. I currently have them on a 5-book rotation.

1. WLLH - Jones
2. TOP - Sklansky
3. Middle Limit Holdem - Brier and Ciaffone
4. Small Stakes Holdem - Eddie et al.
5. HPFAP - Sklansky & Malmuth

I am *very* comfortable with this progression.

[/ QUOTE ]


After we pointed out the posts on this thread, especially since myself and my buddy agreed with these five books in this order verbatim, we were able to convince our friend to go through the Clarkmeister Five Book Poker Course (TM) (R) (C).

Thanks for everyone's help in this matter....


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[blackaces13]

I don't think a lot of people are gonna touch this one but I'll agree with you 100% on the loose games section in particular. Its complete junk and this "its for loose games with good players" garbage is not mentioned in the text at all as a reason not to raise big hands preflop for instance. The loose games section is pretty much the antithesis of SSH and I'm really not buying that its was written to describe loose games with "good players" beause those really don't exist that I've ever seen where it would make the advice in HPFAP correct and in SSH wrong.

Basically the loose games section will do anyone applyng its advice in a real loose game much more harm than good.

[ohgeetee]

is your friend rich? if so, i would reccommend the following, in this order:

Play Poker Like the Pros, Only the limit poker section
Anything with the word winning in it by Ken Warren
any random book on sportsbetting.


It might not make him a winner at hold'em very fast, but it will help you out!

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
I have many friends learning how to play. I currently have them on a 5-book rotation.

1. WLLH - Jones
2. TOP - Sklansky
3. Middle Limit Holdem - Brier and Ciaffone
4. Small Stakes Holdem - Eddie et al.
5. HPFAP - Sklansky & Malmuth

I am *very* comfortable with this progression.

[/ QUOTE ]

This looks pretty good.

For someone that doesn't take to the game naturally, the key seems to be starting with WLLH, the book is light years ahead of others for beginners. The other important thing is adding SSH somewhere, it has almost all the tools anyone would need to beat most low and mid limit games. HPFAP and TOP are worthwhile, but someone could get by without them.

[Moyer]

6. Inside the Poker Mind


Sorry, just had to add one more.

[imported_turvalon]

I like the Clarkmeister list. When I first started I picked up TOP because I did some research and everyone said it the the one book they would bring on a desserted island. It was too much for me since I never really played hold em.

I went out and got WLLHE, played for a while, turned profit, read TOP again and it made way more sense, and then picked up SSHE. Just missed the Mid limit book /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

(by read, I mean multiple times)

[DrPhysic]

If you absolutely insist on only three, I have to go with basics, limit holdem, and psychology, and leave out the advanced holdem, math, tournament play, and NL books.

So we will assume you are talking about low limit holdem ring table only.

on basics of poker:
Theorey of Poker, Sklansky

on limit holdem:
Improve Your Poker, Ciaffone (with apologies to Ed Miller. No comparison intended, I just haven't read his yet.)

on psychology:
Psychology of Poker, Alan Schoonmaker

However that leaves out:
HEP & HEPFAP on more advanced holdem,

GTBOI on the math of poker,

TPFAP on tournament play, and

NL & PL POKER on NL play.

Read the first three and stay at low limit LHE ring until you win enough to buy some more books.

Doc

[astroglide]

i don't see what value hpfap adds over ssh

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
6. Inside the Poker Mind


Sorry, just had to add one more.

[/ QUOTE ]


hahaha--- yeah, um, no. He bought the five books in question and is already annoyed that we conned---er, convinced---him to read all five thoroughly.

Fortunately, he is very well off, so hitting the $2/$4 tables at Foxwoods and applying what he learns as he learns, while it might prove to be a loss of money, will prove to be a loss of irrelevant funds for him.

I've read (I think) every book recommended in this post and I simply believe Clarkmeister's Five Book Poker Course o' Doom (TM) (R) (C) incorporates the best five books, no offense to any other authors intended -- heck, I bought all of your books, so just remember, an entire 25-cents of your royalty came from yours truly.

As Teddy Long says, Buhlee Dat.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Al_Capone_Junior]

For a beginning player I would substitute psychology of poker for middle limit hold'em. Not that Brier's book is bad, but with four hold'em books, I think the new player could benefit more from learning the basic psychology than from yet another hold'em book, particularly one intended for middle limit games that are no doubt quite different from the games SSH was intended for.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I disagreed with you in another post about your inclusion of middle limit hold'em, but I must admit, you make a good case for your arguement here, whether I agree or not.

Really, I think if you had to choose just three and only three, I'd pick SSH, Lee Jones, and TOP. But only including three is like being assigned a 500 word essay for college english, then only writing 300 because "you figured it would be enough."

My list of "required reading" would include about eight books, plus more if you are playing tournaments, stud, or omaha-8 games. Gambling theory and other topics should be in there, psychology of poker, inside the poker mind, plus the ones I mentioned in my other post (mostly the same as your list).

Ultimately there are NO poker books that I own that I am sorry I bought, and I have almost all that are worth a damn (that I am aware of the existence of).

al

[Elfan]

[ QUOTE ]
GTBOI on the math of poker,
TPFAP on tournament play, and
NL & PL POKER on NL play.


[/ QUOTE ]

What are the full names of these two?

[deacsoft]

HPFAP, TOP, SSH, and Caro's Book of Poker tells (if you play live poker).

[uuDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
GTBOI on the math of poker,
TPFAP on tournament play, and
NL & PL POKER on NL play.


[/ QUOTE ]

What are the full names of these two?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure which 2 you mean, but:
GTBOI= Getting the Best of It, by David Sklansky
TPFAP= Tournament Poker for Advanced Players, by David Sklansky
NL&PL Poker= Pot-Limit & No-Limit Poker, by Bob Ciaffone and Stewart Rueben

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting that you recommend Middle Limit Holdem before Small Stakes Holdem. May I ask what your reasonong behind this is? You would think it would be the opposite.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think SSH is a more advanced book conceptually than MLH.

In an oversimplified nutshell, I think it is important to have a strong overall strategic approach to the game as a foundation. Despite their respective flaws, WLLH offers a great strategic approach to the game for beginners and MLH is the perfect natural extension of that.

SSH and HPFAP meanwhile are IMO more tactical in nature. I feel most players need to focus on a fundamental strategic approach to the game before worrying about more sophisticated tactical maneuvers that they don't necessarily understand or correctly apply.

Essentially, I think it is good for players to begin with a somewhat weak-tightish mindset that then grows into a more sophisticated attacking strategy. Most newer players have a natural tendency to be loose and aggressive. WLLH followed by MLH should help hammer home a nice weak tight mindset and overall strategy that can then begin to "plug in" the more advanced tactical ideas contained in SSH and HPFAP.

I add TOP in after WLLH because the ideas involved there are too important to overlook once someone has played a few hours and read that initial book. I don't expect my friends to "get" TOP fully that soon in their poker career, but it forces them to look at poker in a dry analytical manner instead of in a "the game is about psyching out your opponents, bluffing and making reads" manner.

Hope this makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your reasonings make complete sense to me and I agree with you whole-heartedly. I haven't read MLH yet, but I have it here in front of me so I'm looking forward to it as I really enjoy Ciaffone's work overall (Improve Your Poker is an excellent read along the lines of Poker Essays).

Anywho, back to my question, have you read Hilger's Internet Texas Hold 'Em book? The reason I ask is I had always been in the Jones camp for best book for beginners and I still think it fits that task very well, but I feel Hilger's book is better. It is better written, it explains concepts such as pot odds, bluffing, deception, free cards and check-raising much clearer than Jones book and I think the advice overall is sounder. Additionally, I like the format of the book in that it is a chapter of information followed by a summary with hand quizzes at the end of each chapter.

[As Zehn]

Anywho, back to my question, have you read Hilger's Internet Texas Hold 'Em book? The reason I ask is I had always been in the Jones camp for best book for beginners and I still think it fits that task very well, but I feel Hilger's book is better. It is better written, it explains concepts such as pot odds, bluffing, deception, free cards and check-raising much clearer than Jones book and I think the advice overall is sounder. Additionally, I like the format of the book in that it is a chapter of information followed by a summary with hand quizzes at the end of each chapter.


Please accept this continuation of your thoughts from a newbie with limited play experience. I am currently reading ITH and agree that it explains many concepts clearer and the quizzes are helpful in reinforcing his thoughts.

Had this been my first book on Hold Em, I think the amount of information would have been overwhelming. To date I have only played B&M, and attempting to memorize the starting hand charts he lists prior to having played would have turned me off to playing.

I think WLLH was a good choice for a beginners book. It gave me a foundation to build from. ITH is much closer to SSH than to a raw beginners book.

[DrPhysic]

Getting the Best of It, Sklansky
Tournament Poker For Advanced Players, Sklansky
Pot Limit and No Limit Poker, Ciaffone & Reuben

Sorry for delayed response, have been out of town for four days.

These are all great books!

Doc

[G. Ed Conly]

I'd go with Begin to Win, my audio CD for beginners, then Hold'em Poker, HPFAP, and SSH. That's 3 books and 1 CD. Without fundamentals the advanced theory is likely to be too esoteric for most people.

[xrongor]

thank you all for this thread. i think it should be added to the top of the required reading list!

randy

[DocMartin]

Thanks indeed for the thread. Here's the novice perspective. I started with Warren's BIG Book along with Hellmuth's (both conveniently located in the bookstore) and the best thing they did was direct me here. Warren's book is pretty solid for the true novice (I couldnt bring myself to look through poker for dummies).WLLH was great, still battling through TOP and SSH, and looking to hit a couple of others on the list. ITH for sure and probably one more before I start re-reading and collecting serious chips from the uninformed... suggestions for that final (for now) book?

[mikimaus]

1. TOP

- as it says, though mostly about seven card stud but truly the greatest book written about general poker strategy.

2. Championship NLPLH

- I have read about all other big bet holdem books out there are found them mostly included, trash, useless, incorrect, while this book contains tournament strategy too, though at places a bit too tight and passive, still way the best overall book at the moment, and will be at least till Ciaffone's new big bet holdem book comes out.

3. MLHP by Ciaffone and Brier

- absolutely enough to beat anything lower too, and this is specifically for casino play, and covers about all knowledge written before 2001, and in more clear way than HPFAP that's a useless book at the moment (and from most part very incomplete and contains a lot of incorrect information where the ideas are correct but the examples are wrong - the only major good thing about that book is a decent preflop strategy).

Additionally there's a web site of Abdul that has the best preflop strategy put on print at this time, though needs improvements here and there but that's always the case with everything, while this is additionally free.

I would also mention Ciaffone's small Omaha Holdem Poker book, as that's way the better game than today's tight holdem games, and more so full ring holdem games both limit and big bet that are tight online, something that needs to be noted that it's not worth to study and play them online, when they are full ring games, and about all literature is about them, and mostly about either old time loose games or about casino games, while over 90% of the players play only online, and the games are completely different and way tighter and about all players are more or less educated.

[Beavis68]

Hellmuths PPLPs

I am torn between ITH and WLLH

And SSH is a must for any holdem player

The reason I like PPLP is because it covers so many types of poker well.

[Keres]

I've got to disagree with the Ciaffone's Middle Limit Holdem as a good book for a beginner. There's some good ideas in there but using them in a low limit game will get one killed. Playing 1-2, 2-4, and 3-6 on party that book is not appropriate.

For a brand new player I'd recommend (in order):

WLLH - good basic introduction that won't get her killed
Gary Carson's book - good info about playing draws with many players aggressively
SSH - more advanced stuff that could get her killed if she reads this first

If she was more into SNGs I'd knock out SSH and replace it with Cloutier's tourney NL book. Interesting and easy to read, it explains concepts that will work well in the lower limit SNGs

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
WLLH was great, still battling through TOP and SSH, and looking to hit a couple of others on the list. ITH for sure and probably one more before I start re-reading and collecting serious chips from the uninformed... suggestions for that final (for now) book?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm going to be a total hypocrite and say that if you've got WLLH, ITH, TOP, and SSH, you'd be better off re-reading the books you already have -- two or three times each -- instead of buying new ones.

But if you want to disregard that advice, as I always do, the next hold 'em books I'd recommend are Middle Limit Holdem (Ciaffone/Brier), Real Poker II (Roy Cooke), and Inside the Poker Mind (John Feeney).

[timmer]

If marooned on an island with cocoanuts, bananas and tree climbing poker playing monkeys. These are the "3" books Id want.

Miller- Small Skakes Hold Em
Sklanski- Theory of Poker
Zee Malmuth Sklanski- SCSFAP

And of course a set up of Kems.

But for a brand new player with no presupposed notions about which game is best.

Kreigers- More Hold em Excellence- Basic HE primer
Wests- 7card stud 42 lessons- Basic Stud Primer
Phillips- Zen and the Art of Poker- Basic Life primer

Just my few cents

timmer

[timmer]

[ QUOTE ]
For a beginning player I would substitute psychology of poker for middle limit hold'em.

with four hold'em books, I think the new player could benefit more from learning the basic psychology than from another hold'em book.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed

timmer

[darvon]

To be true to your question, I couldn't improve on the suggestions offered here.

But I was EXACTLY in the spot of your friend at the beginning of this year. I hadn't play hardly any poker in my life and I watched the ESPN broadcast and got the bug.

If someone in that position asked me what 3 books to read, I would say "DON'T"

I would tell them that I don't think most people, myself included, want to read even one book all the way through before scurrying to the tables. And some lessons will be easy to pick up and others will be hard, solely dependant upon your personality. So I would buy 1 book, and PT, and go play for 90 days. THEN you would see how things are going and make some corrections. Buying three books at once would either have 2.5 of them collecting dust or be so frustrating that you would quit poker in 90 days.

So the three books I would recommend are

1) ITH
2) PT
3) 5,000 hands of Low Limit at Party.

[jeffnc]

[ QUOTE ]
Mason says that some of the preflop advice in ITH is...

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter. As Miller points out, debating the minutea of borderline starting hands is a waste of time. The strength of the recommendations is that they work very well overall for beginning and intermediate players, and the layout of the charts is the best anywhere. Actually, I don't think you need more than ITH and then SSH. If you insist on 3, then start with WLLH if someone is a slower learner, otherwise add TOP or HPFAP (21st century addition) or even Tao of Poker, depending on what you need help with.

[jeffnc]

[ QUOTE ]
To date I have only played B&M, and attempting to memorize the starting hand charts he lists prior to having played would have turned me off to playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well of course the book is written for internet poker and you're supposed to have the chart handy to play with at first. It would of course be impossible to memorize for live play. The best way to "memorize" it would be to play online with it for awhile until you "get it". Then you won't have to memorize it to make virtually the same plays on your own.

[Rudbaeck]

Memorizing any chart is pretty much a waste of time, unless you are good at rote memorization.

For most of us it is easier to understand why each hand should be played, once you do that you can always figure out if your hand is playable in the current situation or not.

A good example hand is what to do with T9s UTG. It's pretty trivial to realize that no chart is going to be right all the time for this hand. And once you understand what makes this hand playable you can figure out if you can play it in this position or not depending on the table.

At a very loose and passive table it is right to play 33 UTG, but it is also right to fold it in late MP if it's folded to you. Hard to capture in a chart without overwhelming the reader with info, but easy to understand why it's playable in the first case but not the second.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
if you've got WLLH, ITH, TOP, and SSH, you'd be better off re-reading the books you already have -- two or three times each -- instead of buying new ones.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have three of those you mention but not ITH. I thought WLLH was great and went through it a few times. I still refer to it occassionally. I am mainly reading SSH now, and have read through about 75% at least once. I got into some trouble with SSH at first trying to be aggressive and overdoing it. I didn't understand some of the constraints on when to be aggressive. I'm still working on that, but I've calmed down and I went from -2BB on Party to +2BB.

Do the ITH fans think someone in my position might do well to get ITH at this point, or would it likely be good to just continue concentrating on reading SSH? I don't mind getting ITH if it would really help me, but I wonder if it would be taking a step backwards or maybe just sideways.

Also, it was mentioned that ITH has great starting hand charts. It was also written (above, I think), that HE4AP has great starting hand advice. How do these two compare in that area. I was thinking of getting HE4AP just for the starting hand section for now. I used to use the WLLH charts, and now I use the SSH charts. I have them about 80% memorized. But I don't have a good feel for fine tuning them. For instance, SSH says you can cold call two bets with any pocket pair in any position preflop. I have a feeling that might be subject to some refinment that SSH doesn't go into, or maybe I missed it.

Could someone expound a little on how the treatment of starting hands in these two tomes compare and contrast?

Thanks,
-TomBk

[Joe B.]

[ QUOTE ]
winning low limit holdem
holdem poker for advanced players
theory of poker

this is what i just reccomended to my brother last month in that order. i havent read ssh yet. it may replace top in my top 3 in the future if it lives up to expectation. i would still reccomend top to anyone though.

[/ QUOTE ]


holdem poker for advanced players that is not a beginner book. this book is for higher limit holdem.

i am sure , a beginner dont want to start out at a higher limit holdem.

SSH will be better because it for low limit hodlem.

ITH is way better than WLLH.

[cowboyzfan]

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, SSH says you can cold call two bets with any pocket pair in any position preflop. I have a feeling that might be subject to some refinment that SSH doesn't go into, or maybe I missed it.

[/ QUOTE ]

My copy doesn't say that. In fact, my copy says that in a tight game you should fold the smaller pairs from early position even for one bet. Although it is true most play them for one bet if the game is not very TAG.

I do remember SSH saying something like you can cold call a raise IF a couple other players have cold called it as well. This is very different from what you said.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For instance, SSH says you can cold call two bets with any pocket pair in any position preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
...my copy says that in a tight game you should fold the smaller pairs from early position even for one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
What you point out coyboyfanz, is correct under the Tight Game guidelines. What I wrote above applied to the Loose Game guidelines. -TomBk

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
I've got to disagree with the Ciaffone's Middle Limit Holdem as a good book for a beginner. There's some good ideas in there but using them in a low limit game will get one killed. For playing 1-2, 2-4, and 3-6 on Party, that book is not appropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you expound on why you feel MLH would be bad for a beginner as an extension of WLLH as suggested above? And can we assume a beginner means someone who plays at .5/1 and maybe 1/2? Very few beginners are even playing 2/4 and 3/6 online, although they might be in casinos, I suppose.

By the way, Mason Malmuth's review of Middle Limit Hold'Em is here. (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=books&Number=218501&Forum= f19&Words=Brier&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=218499& Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=3&daterange=1&newer val=5&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#P ost218501) He has some reservations about the book; but if I'm reading him correctly, the issues he has with it might tend to conform to the Jones WLLH style of keeping beginners out of trouble at the slight expense of not optimizing every play.

TomBk

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
He bought the five books in question.

[/ QUOTE ]So how did he like them? Which did he like best? And how much did they help his game? =TomBk