Is there a better way to play this?

[durron597]

This was the first hand this player played this SnG (and the first hand I played as well). $10+1 on PokerRoom.

Seat 1: SB ($1,400 in chips)
Seat 2: BB ($1,280 in chips)
Seat 3: UTG (Villian) ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 4: UTG+1 ($1,685 in chips)
Seat 5: MP1 ($1,220 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,A/images/graemlins/club.gif ] ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 7: MP3 ($1,605 in chips)
Seat 8: CO-1 ($1,470 in chips)
Seat 9: CO ($2,160 in chips)
Seat 10: Button ($1,180 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($10), BB posts blind ($20).

PRE-FLOP
Villian bets $40, 2 folds, durron597 bets $125, 6 folds, Villian bets $300, durron597 calls $215.

FLOP [board cards Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif,6/images/graemlins/heart.gif,6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
Villian bets $360, durron597 folds.

[NegativeEV]

Villian min-raised then reraised heavily. I've read many posts here that say this is an indicator of AA or KK, but this is contrary to my experience at the low buy-in tables at PP (I don't have experience at PokerRoom). I see this type of action frequently with the villian showing AJ or worse at the $11 tables. The fact that villian has not yet played a hand worries me a bit, but I'm still inclined to either call his preflop RR or push in over top. I'd call in this situation as you did.

With the two suited flop, you now have only 4 outs to the A or K that you really like, and these may even be poor outs as they make a likely 2 pair for villian. I would fold the flop as you did.

I'm interested in other thoughts on this hand as I would make the same play you did, but it feels a little weak.

[durron597]

Yeah, basically my thought process through this hand was that "OK I have AK, must raise. Oh man, I got reraised; well he could have AA or KK but he could have AQ/AJ/QQ/JJ/TT/99?" too. Ok I'll see a flop.

On the flop: Man, this flop sucks. Hm, he's betting. I am only ahead of AJ taking a stab, unless he has Ah Jh, AQ/and any PP are beating me now, and most of those will call a push. I have to fold.

After the hand: Man, that was weak. There has to be a better way to play this.

[irieraise]

Since this is a $10 tournament, I guess all kinds of shenanigans are possible (such as the Villan making the move with a weaker A). But, if he's a reasonable player whatsoever, you have a clear fold pre-flop when he reraises you to $300.

I really feel you need to raise pre-flop with AK (which you did...and a pretty good amount too, btw, even though it was less than a pot-sized raise) to find out where you are. When someone comes over the top of you, I think you're almost always behind (i.e., he's got a pocket pair). In general, I think the natural inclination of a weaker Ace is to call your raise pre-flop, not to pop you. Same for a middle or low pair. 99 - AA will reraise. Yes, the pot odds are in your favor to make a call here (if his pair isn't AA or KK), but it sucks in poker to be getting the right price, and yet be a favorite to lose the hand or have to give up on the flop.

Since you posted looking for a better way to play this hand, I submit folding to the reraise pre-flop and looking for a better spot. And, if you are one of the best players at the table, I'm convinced this is the correct play 100% of the time. If you think your game is a little weak, reraising all-in here and racing (assuming he calls) is probably the second best option.

Good luck,

--Mark

[Irieguy]

While I agree with the other irie dude, I still think there's a better way to play this. I just had a very similar hand in a $100+9 on PP. It was the first hand of the second level, and I hadn't seen a flop yet.

An early position player who also hadn't seen a flop yet made a minimum raise preflop and I was in LP with AK. While I would almost always raise here, and raising is probably correct almost everytime, I thought for a few moments and came up with a better plan:

I didn't like the min. raise as the first noise in a tourney from an early position player. While he could be just screwing around, of course, he could also have a really big hand that wants action and he's afraid his quietness thus far might cause folds all around. So, If I raised and got re-popped preflop, I'd fold... which I don't want. Instead, I just called the min. raise... knowing that the blinds could give me trouble, but I like my hand and my position... so it's ok. The SB folded and the BB called. Flop came Jack high and the original raiser bet 1/4 of his stack (250) into a $70 pot. I folded and the BB went all-in. Results are irrelevant.

So here's my point and the rationale behind it: If you are particularly worried that you are getting trapped preflop with AK, then consider flat calling a small bet. This lets you get away cheap, and if the flop comes with an ace or king you can probably play the hand in such a way as to trap the trapper if he has an underpair or weaker ace. Since you haven't shown any strength pre-flop, you are in good position to trap post-flop if you get lucky.

I don't think this is fancy play syndrome... if you think a tight player is getting tricky, you might have to get trickier. Also, if you can get away from AK preflop when you are against a big pair, you will be saving money that almost nobody else is able to save.

Before anybody starts spouting about how weak/tight this play is, remember that this discussion only applies to a situation where you have very good reason to be afraid of a better hand than yours. This discussion in not relevant to the other 95% of the time you have AK in late position and are facing a raise in front of you.

[gergery]

Why not raise to T75-100? That’s enough to force anyone else with crappy and or drawing hands out (since there’s a UTG raiser and then reraiser), and get UTG to define his hand. If he’s got Ax, suited connectors or smaller pair 88-22 you want him to call anyway, as he’ll be throwing away his hand to your flop bet most of the time anyway.

Once he reraises you, that seems like AA-QQ as I think all other hands would call, so you fold. And if hes got something goofy like AJ or 99 it shouldn’t be too hard to take his money later.

--Greg

[durron597]

No way. I have to limit the range of hands he could be on - maybe he's not THAT tight and just got crap cards for the first few hands (remember it's only level 1). Also remember there are a lot of players behind me who I don't want to see a cheap flop - with a flop this multiway I would have to fold even if the flop were K66 instead of the Q66 it actually was.

Really, I think my raise is fine, and I think my flop fold is fine; what's really in dispute here (IMO) is my reraise call. I could see both rereraising and folding here as viable options. But I have to make that first raise preflop.

[gergery]

That’s fine but with two limpers you will find people calling with connected cards, 1-gappers, any pair, and some other stuff, so if you do hit TPTK and run into any action you will have to bail. So you are giving up any folding equity you might have, which is in general not how you want to play poker if you have a hand that doesn’t have to give it up.

[patrick dicaprio]

min raise and then reraise? i have to think you are behind here. maybe you are better off that you didnt catch an A or K! if he made this paly with QQ or worse then even then you cant be too upset becaue you are still behind unless he does this with AQ or AJ which is very rare at any level.

Pat

[stupidsucker]

I didnt read all the replys, but here is what I do (sometimes)

When I have AK, and someone raises before me I always re-raise like you did. If I get raised back again I sometimes fold right there depending on my stack size, pot size, and the level of the tourney. AK is a very powerful hand, but it has its weaknesses. I have found that if I cant gain the lead going to the flop then I am probably beat. Even if I get an A or K on the flop (or both) I still dont know if someone has made a set. This can be very very costly, and if my opponent has QQ or JJ then you rarely get paid off when you flop your A or K.

Bottom line, if I feel I am beat preflop when I hold AK I muck it. This mainly goes for early rounds action. Once the blinds are high I dont waste any time, I push and see what it brings.

[irieraise]

Aight, Irieguy...for a sec, I thought there was some real merit to your proposed play. However, upon further review, here is the problem:

I'll concede that, for whatever reason, you are correct in your suspicion that EP guy is trapping you. This clearly is next to impossible to read online at the $10-$30 sng level, but I imagine it's feasible at $100. What hands do you put him on? What does an EP player look down at and think, "Sweet...a nice big hand that I'm going to try to trap someone with and really increase my stack here?" AA and KK? -- certainly. QQ? -- gettin' sketchy here, but OK. JJ? -- gettin' really sketchy here, but again, keep it in. TT? - no way. AK? -- maybe, but also sketchy. AQ? -- no way.

So, if you're going to say your read is that you're getting trapped, you're going to have to give me that he can only have 1 of 5 hands...AA, KK, QQ, JJ, and AK, and even a couple of those are dubious. So, you trail everything he has except for AK.

Therefore, the real problem with your play is the negative implied odds it creates. You haven't built any pot pre-flop by just calling, so there's very little money to be won right now. Any flop that hits you will either be (a) super-scary for him and cause any decent player to shut down almost completely (like his having QQ or KK and an A flops), or (b) hit him as well and cause you to lose all your chips (like him having KK and the flop coming A-K-x).

Add to all this the fact that you not raising doesn't allow you to define his hand at all, and it prices both blinds in pretty well to call with a whole host of basically random hands. How about you catching an A-T-8 rainbow flop, that both the BB and EP check to you. You bet the pot, and the BB pops you while the EP folds. Now what do you do?

[ilya]

I think you should fold to the reraise. To my experience (admittedly very limited -- a few hundred $10s at Party), your opponent's betting pattern strongly suggests a premium pair. Anyway, you're a dog against his probable range of hands. Also, and I think this is fairly important, you are not in a position to semi-bluff on the flop. His preflop agression makes it highly likely that he'll bet out on the flop, and you will not be able to call him unless you make a pair. Since you'll miss your pair two thirds of the time, you're not in good shape. Add this to the very real possibility that you can make TPTK/TP2ndK and still lose all your chips, and I think you have a clear fold.

[durron597]

How can AK make TP2K? Flop an A, K is the top kicker (because A is a pair), flop a K, A is top kicker....

Anyway, really my big reason for not wanting to fold to the reraise is table image. I don't want people reraising me all day long because I don't get AA/KK/QQ all that often /images/graemlins/grin.gif. I didn't get them once this tourney (despite my second place finish by the end of it). Other than that, though, I see what everyone is saying, and I will keep it in mind. Thanks for the advice!

[HoldingFolding]

As a relative novice, this is exactly the way I play AA or KK early on. The min raise is to flush out rubbish hands from SB & BB; but I'm hoping, ideally, for a big reraise or at least a few calls, since a big raise straight out of the gate will likely add only T25 to my coffers.

I'd fold.

[Irieguy]

I'm going to submit a more thoughtful explanation of why I think simply calling a minimum raise preflop in this VERY SPECIFIC situation has more value than the others think.

Let's first examine exactly which hands a seemingly tight player would make a minimum raise with from early position preflop in the early stages of a SNG, with plans to reraise if you reraise him. If you have AK, here are the chances he has each of the following:
AA-3 ways
KK-3 ways
AK-9 ways
QQ-6 ways
JJ-6 ways
AQs- 4 ways

I think that's a pretty fair list of highly likely holdings. Jacks are much less likely, but there are a few other hands not mentioned which would probably creep into your opponent's list... so giving him 6 possiblilities for Jacks is probably reasonable. That gives him 31 different hands, and you are only behind with 6 of them. With the other 25 hands, you are either ahead or it's a coin toss. If you are in a hand where you are very likely to be in a coin toss situation, and your chances of being way ahead are about the same as your chances of being way behind AND you have position, I think you want to see a flop. Folding to a reraise preflop here is probably wrong, especially if you have any reason to include a few more Ace-x hands in his possible holdings. Not only do you want to see a flop, but you want the pot to be small. Why? Because if you have position and the pot is small, it should be much easier for you to get a read on him, and easier for you to fold after the flop. True, you are likely to pick up the BB as well, but the SB should still fold >50% of the time, and why is everybody afraid of having 2 opponents with AK and position?

I think there's a pretty good arguement for seeing the flop and keeping the pot small here. Again, in almost every other situation I would reraise with AK from around back with a single preflop raiser... just not here.

What about after the flop? Are you going to get trapped? Well, going into the flop he's only got a 20% chance of having AA or KK, but if an A or K comes on the flop, you would be incorrect to play the hand as if you were running into a set. With how many of his 31 possible hands will he be willing to pay you off if an Ace hits the flop? I would argue a lot. I don't think there are negative implied odds here- If you think that most players will lay down Queens or Jacks if an ace comes against a player that didn't raise preflop, you are playing at a different site than I am. In fact, I would argue that if you are laying down these hands in that situation you are giving up too easily. So, I don't think this is a negative implied odds situation where you can't get paid off if you hit. Most of the time, you are going to miss the flop and have to fold to a pot-sized bet or larger by the raiser. Fine, that's only 2 big blinds. But a good 30% of the time you are going to flop something that will allow you to play some poker after the flop (remember, 9 of his 31 possible hands are AK, and if you both miss, you should be able to outplay him with postion.)

I'm not saying this is the best way to play this hand, but it is a way that makes sense. To be honest, it had never occured to me before I read durron's post.... then the situation happened to me and I thought of this, played it this way, and ended up winning a $100 SNG. So, at the very least this thread won me $500... if it also created a leak by convincing me of some fuzzy logic regarding this situation, please somebody convince me why.

[durron597]

You are completely missing the point. This is level one; most players at the table have at least 75xBB. That means that 1) the BB is correct to call with just about any two cards (ok not T2o but 74s would be correct). 2) Everyone who acts after me (there are 6 more players) has odds to call with any low pair, any suited connector, any suited ace, etc. etc. So say UTG has QQ and I have AK, and we get two more callers who have position on us and one of them flops a set and another flops two pair with their ace and weak kicker. I mean obviously it's farfetched for two people to have hit but we're giving two players with massive implied odds hands to call. On the flop that actually happened, I don't want the nut flush draw (Axh) to be in this hand, and I certainly don't want A6s to be in the hand either. Nor do I want a hand like KQ to have called as well. Because the stacks are so deep, they would be correct to call with any of these crap hands because they will get paid off the times that they hit.

Also, with stacks as deep as they are, I've seen many players make a miniraise UTG with a low pocket pair to try to build a pot for the times they hit their set, or with a suited ace the times they hit their flush. Since the blinds are so small, 1xBB and 2xBB makes little difference to their stack, and also it has the added effect of scaring some people with really good hands from making a real raise (hmmm.... /images/graemlins/cool.gif).

Finally, just because he miniraised I don't know for a fact that he wants to reraise me. On the other hand, when I get reraised I get a lot of information about his hand. That's why most of the people who read this thread said I should just fold right now, because it's still early and my read of him is currently "tight player."