Managing the weak ace

[StellarWind]

Party 2/4 (9 players)

Pretty quiet table, no specific reads.

Hero is UTG+1 with A /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

Preflop: Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, BB checks.

Flop (4.5 SB): A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn (4.25 BB): 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, BB folds

River (7.25 BB): K /images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO calls

[MoreWineII]

Weak?! You've got top kicker! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[J.R.]

Nice river. I will often raise the flop, otherwise, I bet the turn (and fold to a check-raise) and consider checking the river as I chop with most aces but usuually end up betting most of the time because I can't think of many second best hands that will bet the river but can identify a few that will call.

[easypete]

Raise the flop. With a marginal kicker, you have a marginal hand. You need to raise this.

K saves you on river from your kicker (unless someone is playing a weak 2 /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. With a marginal kicker, you have a marginal hand. You need to raise this.


[/ QUOTE ]

No he doesn't. There is no hand that he would like to fold that is going to fold. Anyone, with an Ace (better or worse) will call as will anyone with a deuce (who will re-raise the flop or wait to pop the turn). There are no straight or flush draws to be concerned about. The only hands Hero will knock out are likely those that are drawing dead or very near to it.

[colgin]

Looks about right to me. Nicely played.

Colgin

[balkii]

Hi stellar. I like the way you played this. You call the flop, planning to raise the turn as your last money into the pot.

Gives you much more leverage to knock out the field that a flop raise. Represents trips or some other strong hand that will cause the bettor to shut down unless he has a monster. Might cause a weak-tight player to fold an A ("turn raises always mean your TP is beat"). Less likely to get played back at than a flop raise, with a hand that can't take a lot of heat.

Of course once the turn is checked you have a couple value bets.

NIce hand

[TheHip41]

Looks fine just the way you played it.

Derek

[Rico Suave]

Colgin:

[ QUOTE ]
No he doesn't. There is no hand that he would like to fold that is going to fold. Anyone, with an Ace (better or worse) will call as will anyone with a deuce (who will re-raise the flop or wait to pop the turn). There are no straight or flush draws to be concerned about. The only hands Hero will knock out are likely those that are drawing dead or very near to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this analysis....sort of a way ahead/way behind scenario with 3 opponents. My question for you... since the turn was close to a brick, do you raise if the BB bets, or do you flat call again?

--Rico

[J.R.]

True, but while its often misused, a flop raise may allow hero to get a little more information about his marginal strength hand that may come cheaper than calling down. In a party 2-4 game I think that information will be presented reliably enough for hero to make the correct decisions. In addition, a raise may knock out a weaker ace who has a lot of outs to chop.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
You call the flop, planning to raise the turn as your last money into the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
No way did I plan to raise the turn. I don't expect to fold an ace by raising. There aren't any likely draws that are getting odds to call the turn. Certainly there is a lot more value in collecting overcalls than raising.

It would be very costly if BB 3-bet a better ace. Now I'm folding 3 outs to a win and lots of outs to a tie. Unless of course it's not a better ace /images/graemlins/blush.gif.

Calling also saves money if someone plans to raise the turn behind me. Whatever happens after that, my raising first only makes matters worse.

[Garland]

I don't see the problem here, unless someone has the two. But based on this action, it's highly improbable. Even by the end, the K kills all the kickers except for AK itself, which is also unlikely.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a 3-way chop here.

But I'm also seeing more A-weak plays from UTG or UTG+1. Is this game really that loose and a limpfest? I usually just chuck them in the muck preflop.

Garland

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm also seeing more A-weak plays from UTG or UTG+1. Is this game really that loose and a limpfest? I usually just chuck them in the muck preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]
I would not have played A2s in this game. But an eight is very different from a two. The eight kicker beats half the other possible kickers for an ace, which is important when most people play any ace. Flopping a pair of eights will yield TPTK fairly often and is usually at least MPTK. These are decent hands when you *don't* get all those limpers you were dreaming of. A8s is much more flexible than A2s about number of opponents. It just hates getting raised.

[StellarWind]

MP2 had AQo. CO had A5o. 3-way split.

I guess BB had two ... cards. Good effort on his part to try and swipe the pot and then run away when it didn't work. Thanks for the comments.

[balkii]

oh yeah. good points.