Foxwoods KK hand

[rory]

Foxwoods 20/40

This is a pretty boring hand but it is a common situation that I have trouble dealing with still.

A little background
The BB in this hand is a regular. I haven't seen him in many pots and he seems to be one of the few 50ish regulars who is a good player. I have noticed that he waits until the action is to him before looking at his cards and he waits for me to look at my cards before looking at his. So I have started waiting for him to look at his cards before I look at mine, and we get into a little waiting game. He sort of flips his cards up to pretend like he looked at them and I look at the table, or the bow-and-arrow design on the $5 chips or shuffle my cards back and forth. One time I pull out my cell phone and check the time. The little game has gone on for four or five seconds at times. Anyway.. Oh yes, this is Foxwoods. On the West coast apparently the games are populated by loose aggressive maniacs-- on the East coast the games are mostly loose passive. A 3 bet on any street generally means a set or better. People will check call with top pair because they are worried you have two pair.

The hand
I have KK UTG and I raise. It is 10am so it is mostly the better players playing and it folds around to the BB. Good game selection. He checks his cards for his usual 15 seconds, looks over at me, looks like he thinks he should fold it but then calls.

Flop comes A83, rainbow. He calls my flop bet. The turn comes a 4, making two spades on the board. He bets. I...? and why?

-rory

[Nightwish]

This hand is actually trickier than it seems.

You say he's a good player? Then I'm pretty sure that he doesn't have an A (unless it's 2 pair like A8). A good player with an A would check-call the turn and probably bet the river. So he either has a spade draw or 2 pair or better and is betting because he wants you to raise. The good thing about raising is that it seems like you are beat if he 3-bets so you can fold. Raising is also good if you think that he'll check-fold the river if his spade draw misses. But few players will semibluff the turn with a draw and won't follow through on the river....

The result of all this is I think you should just call. You can't fold because this will invite everyone to take a stab at you HU, and you'll actually want to see his cards at showdown because the info will be valuable.

[sam h]

"Good players" come in all varieties and without specific knowledge of the individual it seems a bit suspect to assume he takes the check-call, check-call, bet line in this spot with an A.

I think a lot of players that one might sit down at a table and after a few hours of tightish play identify as "good" could easily have an ace here and be testing the waters.

Raising is best, especially if Rory has some sort of mind game thing going with this guy and he might be the type to get off on laying down an ace here.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
"Good players" come in all varieties and without specific knowledge of the individual it seems a bit suspect to assume he takes the check-call, check-call, bet line in this spot with an A.

I think a lot of players that one might sit down at a table and after a few hours of tightish play identify as "good" could easily have an ace here and be testing the waters.

Raising is best, especially if Rory has some sort of mind game thing going with this guy and he might be the type to get off on laying down an ace here.

[/ QUOTE ]


Betting out at Foxwoods = Top pair or better more times than you'd believe.

I'd fold before raising as this just seems to be $80 that's going to get wasted here (VERY weak, I know, but it depends on your read and from this description ... it's over).


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I have noticed that he waits until the action is to him before looking at his cards and he waits for me to look at my cards before looking at his.
...
The little game has gone on for four or five seconds at times.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds so silly and annoying.

[rory]

Yeah-- it was pretty annoying and slowed up the game quite a bit.

-rory

[elindauer]

This is a common situation? I'm very surprised by the BB's turn bet.

Anywho...

Raising feels wrong, although I don't think the powerplay-raise-fold-to-a-3-bet-check-behind-on-the-river move is terrible here. His play could easily be something like A4s looking to 3-bet what he hopes is AK, knowing that non-ace hands might well check-behind anyways. Pretty good play if you ask me.

Then again, it could be a semi-bluff. It could be pocket 7s trying to avoid a free card on the turn. It would be nice to know, do you think he thinks you'll fold here?

I'm inclined to call down. If another spade hits on the river and he bets, you'd be in a tough spot.

my 2 cents.
Eric

[CrackerZack]

Which regular? Nicky I'd be afraid of, but he's usually not up that late and not prone to play dumb games with looking at the cards.

raise.

[tpir90036]

1) I don't think I have ever read so much background for a one sentence hand /images/graemlins/wink.gif

2) Screw the game selection. I am bailing any game where some gaylord wants to have a staring contest every hand.

3) Call....and bet the river if he checks. He probably "saw into your soul" during the pre-pre-flop antics and knows what you have and is taking a shot at you with QJs. Heh.

Hope you won,
-tpir

[Tommy Angelo]

Check the flop and feel.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have noticed that he waits until the action is to him before looking at his cards and he waits for me to look at my cards before looking at his.
...
The little game has gone on for four or five seconds at times.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds so silly and annoying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially since I believe this is a time-charge game. Hasn't anyone smacked either of you yet?

[rory]

Actually, I think it might have been Nicky. He was definitely at my table for a while, and it was like 10 or 11 am when this hand was played. I can never remember which names go with which people.

There is one guy who I've played with every time I go that, at first, I thought sucked but now I realize he is really good. I think someone said he was from Iran or something one time. He talks about importing pistachios a lot, but he doesn't talk much. He has a great talent for figuring out when the other regulars don't have anything and taking the pot away from them.

-rory

[rory]

I have tried doing this a few times, but only online. What invariably happens is I check the flop, get bet into on the turn and have to make a tough decision.

-rory

[rory]

Anyway, I raised. I decided when he bet that I was going to at least call down, so I figured I would raise. If he 3 bet me then I was going to fold, and if he just called I was going to check behind. I thought his turn bet might be a weak ace looking to see if it was any good so I raised hoping he would fold it. But, for all I know he could have had a pair of 9s or something, though, because he did fold.

-rory

[cjx]

I agree. It seems weak tight, but I'm really only concerned with my image (having other people start taking shots), not this hand. I think you are beat.

cjx

Well, checked results, guess I was wrong. I don't think it's completely unheard of that he did have an Ace there though.

[Barry]

It wasn't Greek or Italian Nicky at the table. Greek Nicky talks a lot and Italian Nicky wasn't around on Saturday. The game that Rory was in was one of the all time worse games that I have ever played in and that includes the 8/16 and 10/20 rocks at the Bellagio and Mirage. I got there about 1PM and at 1 point we had 4 chops in a row. So I wound up changing tables.

I don't know who the BB was in this hand, so it's a little hard to know whether you are beat for sure and it's an easy fold, but I would be inclined to raise the turn, in case he's on a draw. Fold if he 3 bets. You win a little more if your ahead and lose the same as calling the turn an river, if behind.

[Pot-A]

[ QUOTE ]
I have tried doing this a few times, but only online.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing the second and most important part of Tommy's suggestion. You can't try this online.