President Signs Defense Bill

[Il_Mostro]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/08/20040805-3.html

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Third, this bill meets our commitment to America's Armed Forces by preparing them to meet the threats of tomorrow. Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we. We must never stop thinking about how best to defend our country when we all must always be forward-thinking.

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Maybe you people should think about getting a new administration...

[Il_Mostro]

Ok, ok, I see it's been discussed before, ah well, that's what I get for not being around for a couple of weeks... still is a good quote, though /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[vulturesrow]

At least our administration doesnt take half of our income in taxes.

[Il_Mostro]

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At least our administration doesnt take half of our income in taxes.

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Who's talking half? I'd be happy to pay that little in taxes... And, pure speculation, the total tax-pressure in the US might not be that far from 50%, around here I belive it's something like 70% or more, if my memory serves me, including income-tax, VAT, various taxes on specific goods and so on, so forth

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Who's talking half? I'd be happy to pay that little in taxes... And, pure speculation, the total tax-pressure in the US might not be that far from 50%, around here I belive it's something like 70% or more, if my memory serves me, including income-tax, VAT, various taxes on specific goods and so on, so forth

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It was a quick conservative guess based on some stats I dug up online. Id be suprised if the US was approaching 50%. Anyhow, my point still stands. /images/graemlins/wink.gif I just felt obligated to defend my president. Not trying to be rude.

[MMMMMM]

You realize of course that if the government takes half of your income in taxes, you are working 6 months out of each year just to pay the government.

No way in hell should any country cost that much to run, not even this country.

[ACPlayer]

At least our administration doesnt take half of our income in taxes

Actually our tax burden is higher than half.

Lets see: Fed tax rate: 39, NY State and city: 12 Sales Tax: 8 property taxes: variable but large.

Note that our "tax cuts" of the past four years have actually caused an increase in our total taxes. Most state taxes and fees for services have increased. Only the myopic think that our taxes have gone down in the past four years.

Yet, our schools suck, large parts of the population has no health care, most Americans get little vacation time. Right now we are doing very little well, except spending money in Afghanistan to reduce the cost of Opium on our streets and in Iraq to increase the number of people willing to die in the name if Islam.

[nicky g]

In return for that they ge the best social services and one of the highest standards of living in the world.

[riverflush]

Ahh, those great social services again....I'm so jealous.

In Sweden you pay income tax and a VAT tax? Holy crap...

I respect you guys from EU and your opinions but I don't think you truly understand how much most Americans loathe taxes. That's why we started up this here country (bad grammar on purpose).

[vulturesrow]

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In return for that they ge the best social services

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I think this is a debatable point since I have heard not so great reviews of the social services in other countries with similar economies. I'll do better research and see what I think.

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and one of the highest standards of living in the world

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And no money left to enjoy it with.

[moondogg]

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At least our administration doesnt take half of our income in taxes

Actually our tax burden is higher than half.

Lets see: Fed tax rate: 39, NY State and city: 12 Sales Tax: 8 property taxes: variable but large.

Note that our "tax cuts" of the past four years have actually caused an increase in our total taxes. Most state taxes and fees for services have increased. Only the myopic think that our taxes have gone down in the past four years.

Yet, our schools suck, large parts of the population has no health care, most Americans get little vacation time. Right now we are doing very little well, except spending money in Afghanistan to reduce the cost of Opium on our streets and in Iraq to increase the number of people willing to die in the name if Islam.

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Federal 39%? You're including SS taxes in this, right? 'Cause the maximum federal tax rate is 35%, and that's only for people making over 311K per year. Most people are paying 25-28%, and that is only on income made in excess of certain levels, not all income.

State 12%? This is not a very good example, IMHO. If you live and/or work in a city like NYC or Philly, you are going to get f'ed by the wage taxes, period. If you live and work outside a city, you pay only few points of taxes in most states.
8% sales tax? For most states, the sales tax rates are somewhere between 6% and 0%.

Besides, sales and property tax has nothing to do with your income, so it shouldn't really be included in the question of how much of your income you pay in taxes. For sales tax, it would probably be a better question of "how much of your income do you piss away on consumer goods?"

BTW, I pay less in taxes now as compared to a few years ago, period. Yes, my state taxes have gone up, but only a fraction of a point, as opposed to the several points my federal tax decreased. Yes, I may have to pay for services that they government may have provided if they had not lowered taxes, but that's a good thing (more choice, more value).

Inside Philadelphia, the wage tax is relatively large (5%), and the schools suck. Outside of the city, there is usually no city/town tax, and the schools are pretty good.

Yes, large parts of the population do not have healthcare. What does that have to with taxes? Are you actually suggesting that putting the government in charge of a national healthcare system would actually improve the situation? Right now, many people have healthcare, while the rest get f'ed. It's a hell of a lot better than everybody getting f'ed. Socialist-style programs have never worked yet, and I think it's silly to think it's going to work this time.

You get as much vacation time as you negotiate with your employer. If you don't like it, quit. Welcome to capitalism.

[riverflush]

Good post, moondog...

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You get as much vacation time as you negotiate with your employer. If you don't like it, quit. Welcome to capitalism.

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Or howzabout this: start your own business, take as much time off as you want. That is the American dream, and it's alive and well in this country. The quicker people realize all the advantages (tax and vacation) of becoming their own INC. or LLC., the sooner they can be on the path to a more full life. You have to work a lot harder, but the rewards are 3X.

[MMMMMM]

"In return for that they ge the best social services and one of the highest standards of living in the world."

Uh, no, Nicky. The amount they indirectly pay, throuh government, for social services would go much further if the individual invested that money instead, and perhaps bought the appropriate insurances (if desired). In other words the individual is getting ripped off big-time by the abysmal inefficiency which is an inherent and unavoidable part of government.

Without that colossal waste, the individual would get the same or better quality services for a lesser portion of his income, and would have a higher standard of living due to the remainder not wasted.

Central planning and management, and bureaucracy, are ALWAYS the least efficient means of accomplishing anything.

[moondogg]

"Daddy, what do taxes pay for?"

"Well, they pay for everything. From roads, to trees, to sunshine... and let's not forget about people just don't feel like working, God bless'em."

[The once and future king]

What about indidviduals that are in receipt of social service yet are too young to have an income to pay for insurance?

[ACPlayer]

Actually we started this country to get away from religious oppression.

[MD2020]

[ QUOTE ]
"Daddy, what do taxes pay for?"

"Well, they pay for everything. From roads, to trees, to sunshine... and let's not forget about people just don't feel like working, God bless'em."

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One good quote on taxes deserves another:

"Let the bears pay the bear tax. I pay the Homer tax."

[ACPlayer]

I thought we were comparing maximum tax rates. I dont know but doubt that the guy flipping burgers in Sweden is paying 50 percent plus in taxes.

Thanks for the reminder, I did not include the 15 percent plus we pay in FICA and medicare - including the poor sap at the bottom end of the tax schedules.

Sales and property taxes may or may not have to do with income but they are still taxes that we pay to the govt for the services that the govt offers. So, yes that is part of the tax burden.

For your information, our govt is already in the business of national healthcare via medicare and medicaid. We just dont cover everyone with it.

Fortunately, I have essentially retired, so I dont need any vacation time. From your post (and the fact that you pay less taxes now) I suspect that you are at the higher end of the income scales and are thus seeing the reduction in net taxes. The middle and lower classes are seeing higher net costs for the govt services (paying for a school extracurricular activity costs more for the poor as a percentage of income).

I strongly suggest you consider that we are not living in a low tax state, just in a state that is not spending the money on social services for the working population but on military and welfare programs for the non-workers. The incentive to work or provide jobs in the middle income levels is fast disappearing.

[aloiz]

Actually not really. That was one of the reasons people came to the "New World", but not one of the reasons why we broke away from Britain and formed the US. Taxes and lack of representation were the main reasons.

aloiz

[riverflush]

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Actually we started this country to get away from religious oppression.

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Yes. And taxes.

It's also why people regularly move businesses to states that are tax-friendly, such as Nevada, Florida, and New Hampshire, etc. - and it will continue to be a cat-and-mouse game forever. People either move to or away from taxes depending on their worldviews. People in business tend to have a particular worldview and it doesn't look highly on taxation.

[moondogg]

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I thought we were comparing maximum tax rates. I dont know but doubt that the guy flipping burgers in Sweden is paying 50 percent plus in taxes.

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I doubt that he's not. But obviously neither of us know, so it's not relavent.

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Thanks for the reminder, I did not include the 15 percent plus we pay in FICA and medicare - including the poor sap at the bottom end of the tax schedules.

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Ok, so you were not including SS tax in the 39% federal tax. So, where did you get 39% from? As of last year, nobody paid more than 35%, and the vast majority paid 28% or less.

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Sales and property taxes may or may not have to do with income but they are still taxes that we pay to the govt for the services that the govt offers. So, yes that is part of the tax burden.


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This is a tax that people pay at their discretion. The less you buy, the less you pay. Many people live at or above their means, spending the majority of their income each year. Some of these expenses are necessities, but many are not. These people pay a hell of a lot of taxes each year voluntarily.
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For your information, our govt is already in the business of national healthcare via medicare and medicaid. We just dont cover everyone with it.

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Thank god, because medicare and medicaid blows.
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Fortunately, I have essentially retired, so I dont need any vacation time.

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Good for you.
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From your post (and the fact that you pay less taxes now) I suspect that you are at the higher end of the income scales and are thus seeing the reduction in net taxes. The middle and lower classes are seeing higher net costs for the govt services (paying for a school extracurricular activity costs more for the poor as a percentage of income).


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No, my income is middle-class.
The idea that it is cheaper to pay the government to pay for a service is absurd. It only seems that way because you are redistributing wealth. It seems cheaper because someone else's taxes are paying for it. It's still costing twice as much, though. It's like saying things were cheaper when you were a kid because your parents paid for everything.
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I strongly suggest you consider that we are not living in a low tax state, just in a state that is not spending the money on social services for the working population but on military and welfare programs for the non-workers. The incentive to work or provide jobs in the middle income levels is fast disappearing.

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I imagine by "state" you mean "country".

I do not think we live in a low-tax state. I think taxes should be a hell of a lot lower. However, as bad as our tax system is, it's worlds better than socialist countries like Sweden.

It's not the government's job to provide social services, IMHO. This is a good thing, because the government truly sucks at it, no matter how much money you throw at them. Collect all the taxes you want for public schools, but most of them will still suck. Some schools actually provide a decent education, but that's because they have teachers and administrators who actually give a sh!t, not because they get a lot of tax money. Again, see Philadelphia: collects obscene taxes from its citizens, and it's public schools are deplorable (and damn near backrupt). The immediate suburbs collect a lot less taxes, have provide a much better education.

And I certainly don't agree with the spending on welfare for non-workers.

Given that the purpose of government is to defend the rights of it's citizens, the military should be first and foremost when it comes to government spending. No individual can protect themselves against an attack from a hostile force, and it's the government's job to protect people from this. Any individual can succeed financially and take care of their own "social services" (granted, some have it easier than others), so IMHO this should be a subordinated goal of the government at best.

[riverflush]

well said, moondog.

[MMMMMM]

"What about indidviduals that are in receipt of social service yet are too young to have an income to pay for insurance?"

That issue, and the question of what about the lowest income brackets, are irrelevant to the point I was making.
Clearly, some individuals do benefit from such a system, but the overall standard of living is necessarily reduced due to the inherent waste of government.

As for your question: aren't most of them minors, and under their parents' custody?

[Il_Mostro]

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Quote:
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I thought we were comparing maximum tax rates. I dont know but doubt that the guy flipping burgers in Sweden is paying 50 percent plus in taxes.


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I doubt that he's not. But obviously neither of us know, so it's not relavent.


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I'm not going to argue the tax-issues, pros and cons of any system. But the guy flipping burgers in Sweden will pay about 31% income tax (depending on where exactly he's doing the flipping). Then there are all the other taxes, of course.

[Il_Mostro]

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you are working 6 months out of each year just to pay the government.


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Well, yes and no. I hear what you're saying, but those 6 months worth isn't exacly lost, I do get some things back... But I'm not going to get into a big argument defending a system I'm not so sure is the best. But it does have advantages over the american way, and disadvantages too. Which is larger, I don't know.

[moondogg]

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Quote:
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I thought we were comparing maximum tax rates. I dont know but doubt that the guy flipping burgers in Sweden is paying 50 percent plus in taxes.


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I doubt that he's not. But obviously neither of us know, so it's not relavent.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to argue the tax-issues, pros and cons of any system. But the guy flipping burgers in Sweden will pay about 31% income tax (depending on where exactly he's doing the flipping). Then there are all the other taxes, of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the info.

If that same guy was making $7/hr in the US (which is a lot for a burger flipper), he would make about $14,560 if he worked 8 hrs per day, 5 days per week, with no vacation. Comparatively, he would pay 10% federal tax, and it would only be on the income in excess of $14,000, for a total federal tax of $56. This would be about 0.38% of his total income. He probably spends more than that on sneakers.

[moondogg]

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Well, yes and no. I hear what you're saying, but those 6 months worth isn't exacly lost, I do get some things back...


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Oh, yeah?!?! Well listen here, you!...

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But I'm not going to get into a big argument defending a system I'm not so sure is the best. But it does have advantages over the american way, and disadvantages too. Which is larger, I don't know.

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OK, fair enough.