Why did this guy get so mad at me?

[Abednego]

I told this Las Vegas player that I was going to be out there next week after he called me an idiot for my preflop play. I thought that maybe we could get together to discuss my thinking on this hand. He left the table after saying "We depend on folks like you" but he didn't answer me when I asked him where he played. Anyway, he was sure mighty pissed off.



PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, Hero completes, <font color="CC3333">BB <font color="purple">(Mad as a wet hen)</font> raises</font>, UTG calls, Button folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Mad as a wet hen bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Mad as a wet hen bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Mad as a wet hen bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Mad as a wet hen calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 12 BB, between Hero and Mad as a wet hen.</font>

[bisonbison]

fold pf. c/r the turn.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
fold pf. c/r the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have nothing else to add

[mr magoo]

where are u playing next week? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

seriously fold preflop...

[Nelly]

Just so I am clear - you're telling him to fold before it is raised? Two suited cards are not enough to complete a SB bet in a low limit game?

[scotnt73]

i dont think just any 2 suited cards are enough to complete the sb even in low limit. i probably play too many hands from the small blind myself but this is a good example of what i do not play. what flop could you possible get that you would be happy with besides a miricle?

[busguy]

What he said.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif busguy

[crockett]

He should be mad at Hold'em Poker for Advanced players. It says you should complete the SB with many players in and any two suited cards. What it never states is what you should do if the BB raises. I just always follow along if it's raised. If it's two back to me then I fold the crap.

I'm betting that is where that stuff comes from.

[Bill Smith]

With only the Button calling, however, this is not a good call. If you have 3-4 limpers and little chance of the BB raising, yeah, complete any two suited. In this case, there's only 1 limper, and since it happens to be the button, the likelihood that BB will raise also increases.

Fold pf...

[crockett]

I see....thanx.

[razor]

UTG limped as well... however, 2 limpers still isn't enough for me.

[easypete]

We had a discussion in the micros on this.

Any two suited in SB. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=872649&amp;Forum= ,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,&amp;Words=&amp;Searchpage=6&amp;Limit =25&amp;Main=872649&amp;Search=true&amp;where=&amp;Name=4037&amp;dater ange=&amp;newerval=&amp;newertype=&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bo dyprev=#Post872649)

I did some math on this. You have about 15% chance of winning w/ any two suited. You need to have 3 or more in pot to make this correct.

You were really borderline for this call. 2 limpers ahead w/ the BB (if not raising) you're getting 7:1 on your call. I say go for it based on odds, but say fold if BB has tendencies to raise in this situation (2 limpers).

[cardcounter0]

Check/raise the turn, bet the river.
Where will you be playing next week?

The guy got mad at you because he had to have SOMEBODY to blame for his loss.

[MAxx]

i agree w/ your statement, that's how i'd play it at 1/2. the question is then... is it correct to fold to bb's raise if the limpers call it? I have usually called raise, but I think that the fold is proper. I like checkraise on turn.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree w/ your statement, that's how i'd play it at 1/2. the question is then... is it correct to fold to bb's raise if the limpers call it? I have usually called raise, but I think that the fold is proper. I like checkraise on turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Harder to say after BB's raise. You're getting 7:1 to complete and 6:1 to call BB's raise. I wouldn't call 93s getting 6:1, but I would probably call 96s and better. I'm still working out the kinks in my SB play, though.

Rob

[QuickLearner]

I assume (as you probably do) he was mad because you beat his nut flush or full house with your quads. BTW, I would be mad at Mother Teresa for doing that to me. I just wouldn't have called you an idiot. What he should have said was, "We depend on folks like you to not hit quads." Imagine how freaked he would have been if you raised the turn...not that I recommend it.

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i agree w/ your statement, that's how i'd play it at 1/2. the question is then... is it correct to fold to bb's raise if the limpers call it? I have usually called raise, but I think that the fold is proper. I like checkraise on turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


Harder to say after BB's raise. You're getting 7:1 to complete and 6:1 to call BB's raise. I wouldn't call 93s getting 6:1, but I would probably call 96s and better. I'm still working out the kinks in my SB play, though.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... kinda stinks that the Button limp/folds here. You are still getting 6:1 to call (which is slightly less than odds of winning), but you have to go for implied odds here and make the call.

[MAxx]

yea it's tough after bb's raise. however, and i maybe brainfarting here... isn't it still 7-1? after limpers you are putting 1 chip for a pot of 7. then when it gets back around, you are putting in 2 chips for a pot of 14.

if the odds were exactly the same, bb raise situation seems a little less fav because someone else has shown aggresion.

Edit: Oh now I see the button limp-fold. yeah fold to the raise.

[Rico Suave]

Easypete:

[ QUOTE ]
I did some math on this. You have about 15% chance of winning w/ any two suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you flop a flush draw, a flush, or 2 pair or better around 15% of the time with any 2 suited. I doubt that you win anywhere close to 15% of the time.....or am I misunderstanding you?

--Rico

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
Easypete:

[ QUOTE ]
I did some math on this. You have about 15% chance of winning w/ any two suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you flop a flush draw, a flush, or 2 pair or better around 15% of the time with any 2 suited. I doubt that you win anywhere close to 15% of the time.....or am I misunderstanding you?

--Rico

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry.... I just reviewed the old post. You are correct. You will get a flop that is favorable 15% of the time. But in saying so:

720 / 3030 combinations give you 2pr, trips, boat, or quads. All other combinations give you 4.1:1 or better odds post flop, which will make it worth playing.

Anything else makes it an easy fold, so you won't lose more money post-flop.

[sublime]

With a 1/2 blind structure this is fine. Would I like more limpers? Sure, but there are more important things to worry about. As for BB raising after you, yeah it sucks but if you flop two pair or a flush draw your position is very nice.

check/raise the turn

[ZootMurph]

I'd fold preflop, only because you have crappy flush cards and only two limpers in front. So you basically are wishing on a star for 7:1. Of course, when your wish comes true on the turn, you should definitely check/raise, as you have UTG trapped for one bet already. You lose that one bet waiting until the river.

[StellarWind]

Completing the SB with two limpers is at most a minor infraction. I would not have done it, but it isn't worth making a big deal about it. With proper play your EV loss is at most a tiny sliver of a SB. Note that 1/2 is the worst limit to do this because the rake is so harsh for small pots.

Calling the preflop raise is a much more serious error. I'm surprised the posters have failed to emphasize this fact. Let's compare the two calls:

1. Pot odds: First call 7-1, Second call 6-1.

2. Implied odds: First call (postflop bets)-0.5, Second call (postflop bets)-1

3. Opponents: First call two limpers and a random hand, second call one limper and a very strong hand.

Point #2 is very important. Your pot odds are almost the same, but your vital implied odds are cut in half.

Point #3 is also important. If everyone limps and you flop a pair on a decent board, you often stand to make a little money by playing the hand. But I'm not very interested in playing a pair out-of-position against a hand that is 50-50 to be an overpair and otherwise two overcards. BB will also wreck your drawing odds by betting the flop and terrorizing UTG out of the pot.

If you are going to complete light, you need to learn to fold when the BB pops you. This is not "limp-folding". The mathematics are completely different when you only risk 1/2 SB.

Not checkraising the turn is a huge error. Your opponent has made the worst error in poker--being in the wrong place at the wrong time--and you need to punish him for it. The time to punish him is while there is still a card to come and he can hope to draw his way out of trouble. You're lucky he had a good hand (I assume) or he might have checked behind you on the river and cost you 2 BB.

Don't argue with your critics. The whole see-ya-in-Vegas routine is silly. Just ignore him and play the next hand. Retaliating just ensures that the whole table remembers who you are and how you play. Be invisible and make more money. Getting involved could also get you in trouble with Stars management. Someone at the table might have reported BB's behavior. Make it easy for Stars to punish him for a clear-cut one-sided infraction.

[Abednego]

First of all I would like to thank everybody for their posts.

I was playing at this table because it had 50%+ seeing the flop when I joined the waiting list. BTW so did the wet hen fella because after we exchanged a little friendly banter he left and went to another table with similar preflop characteristics. So we were both there because we thought it was a soft game even though this hand with only three callers doesn't bear out just how loose it was.

Now, am I correct in thinking that you must loosen up your starters in such a game? I am prepared to see greater fluctuations but I am asking if the correct approach to these type of games is to loosen your starting requirements. I see a lot people get frustrated in these type of games and my thinking is - if I can't win in these I should just give up.

I see that the check/raise on the turn was the smart thing to do. I guess I was thinking after the deck hit me so hard that I didn't want to chase anyone out. What I should have been thinking was - what if someone has a full house.

I am looking forward to my trip next week. I'll be staying at the Venetian but I don't think they have poker tables there. Where should I play?


PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="666666">5 folds</font>, Button calls, Hero completes, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, Button folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 12 BB, between Hero and BB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero (12 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows 9d 3d (four of a kind, nines).
BB shows Ts Td (full house, nines full of tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 12 BB. </font>

[Louie Landale]

The two pre-flop limps pretty marginal but hey, I'd do it. If they are "bad" it only costs pennies.

Odd you didn't raise on the turn: even you are going to call down the flush anyway but you have no particular reason to suspect ..err.. believe anybody's got one. It costs a lot when you are wrong since the river will typically be checked around if you have the best hand. Be MORE willing to raise here in early than in late.

So, a Vegas "pro" is playing 1/2 online. Right. No, he's read some books and knows the starting hands.

- Louie

[Abednego]

Wow - thanks for the post.

This was my first post and I had no idea getting involved in these forums could yield so much. I definately plan to post more hands and look forward to the repsonses.

[Haupt_234]

In most of the hands I have seen you post so far, you slowplay everything to the river. You don't gain anything by doing so, except for the occasional outdraw (gutshot or runner runner draw). If he is drawing and you wait for the river to raise, you lose 1 BB everytime you do so.

Raise those turns.

Haupt_234

[StogeyMike]

Agree.

[IndieMatty]

I've read it here before, but its worth repeating...for a new player, or even old, one would not lose much at all during their lifetime, if they never slowplayed in low limit hold-em.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
BB will also wreck your drawing odds by betting the flop and terrorizing UTG out of the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is also a 1-2 table. UTG isn't likely to be folding for a flop bet and you'll likely close the action the whole way if you flop something good. The button had a big error by limping then folding. Which is much worse than the hero.

I can't think of the last time i've folded in this spot. It's not a 'serious' mistake. Minor at best.

b

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

Where should I play?


[/ QUOTE ]

I've been to Vegas twice and played in three places: $3/6 at the Mirage and Circus Circus, and $4/8 at Bellagio. All were full of terrible players. I imagine all the low stakes limit games in Vegas are. I would therefore choose my venue based on where it's nicest to play. And the winner is... Bellagio.

Guy.

[TheHip41]

Many players? Wasn't it 2 limpers and the BB? That's a terrible pre flop call. Once the BB raises, and everyone calls, you are pretty much stuck calling closing the action. C/r the turn, you know BB is going to bet it. you get to trap everyone in between.

Derek

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
c/r the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or the flop. I often c/r the flop here.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
So, a Vegas "pro" is playing 1/2 online. Right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's unusual for Vegas Pro's to be broke. (2+2er's excepted of course)

[MVicuna]

Hi,

I count 3.5SB in the hand before he completes so thats 1:7 on his money. This is a -EV situation unless the other players in the hand are calling stations who play any 2. i.e. You'll get action on your miracle flops even if they are drawing dead.

You want at least 10:1 on your money to play any 2 suited cards.

This is why this is a fold. It would be good if the posters who said fold explained why. Or if we could create a FAQ that people could point to about which hands are playable from the SB AND what odds you need to be getting to make them playable.

MarkV.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

I count 3.5SB in the hand before he completes so thats 1:7 on his money. This is a -EV situation unless the other players in the hand are calling stations who play any 2. i.e. You'll get action on your miracle flops even if they are drawing dead.

You want at least 10:1 on your money to play any 2 suited cards.

This is why this is a fold. It would be good if the posters who said fold explained why. Or if we could create a FAQ that people could point to about which hands are playable from the SB AND what odds you need to be getting to make them playable.

MarkV.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need 10:1 to complete your SB with any 2 suited (in this structure). 2 limpers is plenty, assuming the BB rarely raises preflop.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c/r the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or the flop. I often c/r the flop here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain why you would CR the flop against a PF raiser, holding middle pair with no kicker and no backdoor flush draws out of position. I can't imagine that's possibly correct.

[AceHigh]

Obviously you have to think there is a decent chance your hand is best on the flop to make this play correct.

It's only 3 handed so the preflop raiser would often bet pretty much any flop.

So it depends on what I think of utg. A lot of low limit players will see the turn with almost anything (because they figure the preflop raiser would bet any flop), so if he is that type I may have the best hand.

I would play a draw the same way, so I may win on the turn if a 3rd heart shows up. I may win if a 2nd Q shows up, I may get utg to fold a better 9.

I'm over representing my hand, so I can probably fold to later aggression in the hand. I may get a better hand like TT or JJ to fold or a hand with 6 outs to fold on the turn, thinking they only have 3 outs, AJ for example.

What are my alternatives? Call down thru the river or call and then check and fold on the turn?

Call and check/fold, is fine if I know the BB won't bet a worse hand than mine on the turn, but a lot of players will bet the turn with AK/88, etc.

Calling down is OK against aggressive players, but others will outplay me since they have position on me, charging me when they are ahead or drawing live and checking when they are drawing thin.

If I only check/raise when I have top pair or better, I'm going to be pretty easy to read aren't I? Course I haven't played 1/2 in a while.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

You want 1:10 because 1:8 is just your chance of flopping a draw and in the case of 93s your non-nut draw which means it has reverse implied odds.

You want 1:10 because 1:8 is your odds of a monster flop, 2 pair or better. When you flop 2 pair with these raggedy s00ted cards your likely not to get action in an unraised pot, BUT you still lose 1 out of 10 times when you flop big.

Its really much better to get 1:10 with these raggedy s00ted cards that don't have the nut str8 draw to go with them.

I really think just 2 limpers is not a profitable complete with raggedgy s00ted cards unless you have complete calling stations that will pay you off on 2 pair or better flops.

Thanks,
MarkV.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

You want 1:10 because 1:8 is just your chance of flopping a draw and in the case of 93s your non-nut draw which means it has reverse implied odds.

You want 1:10 because 1:8 is your odds of a monster flop, 2 pair or better. When you flop 2 pair with these raggedy s00ted cards your likely not to get action in an unraised pot, BUT you still lose 1 out of 10 times when you flop big.

Its really much better to get 1:10 with these raggedy s00ted cards that don't have the nut str8 draw to go with them.

I really think just 2 limpers is not a profitable complete with raggedgy s00ted cards unless you have complete calling stations that will pay you off on 2 pair or better flops.

Thanks,
MarkV.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have reverse implied odds on your flush when you have 93s. It's just sooooooooo unlikely that someone else has a higher flush draw in the same suit (especially when you've only got 3 opponents).

Also, this is 1/2 - you'll get paid off when your flush comes.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

When The raising war breaks out on a 3 flush board you are not extracting value 100% of the time. It doesn't matter how unlikely it is, it is still a reverse implied odds situation.

Staying out of these situations in marginal EV situations, i.e. 2 limpers, with hands like 93s is probably best.

Thanks,
MarkV.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

When The raising war breaks out on a 3 flush board you are not extracting value 100% of the time. It doesn't matter how unlikely it is, it is still a reverse implied odds situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I guess you'd better fold your K-high flush draws too, since if a raising war breaks out, you might be up against the nut flush.

It's only marginally more likely that someone is on a higher flush draw when you have the 9-high draw than when you have the K-high draw.

[ QUOTE ]
Staying out of these situations in marginal EV situations, i.e. 2 limpers, with hands like 93s is probably best.

Thanks,
MarkV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Marginal +EV situations are still +EV.

[pokerjo22]

[ QUOTE ]
Marginal +EV situations are still +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

And ++variance.