General Party 15/30 concept - less need to lead out of position?

[Tosh]

Generally at lower levels I have encountered very few situations where I felt check calling was better than betting at a river. However, it seems to often be the case where you can check and call as a more profitable play in these games. Clearly its still read dependant but often I think every hand that will call you will bet anyway, as well as some hands that may bluff. The other thing I have noticed is the prevelance of the bluff raise, which is almost unheard of at lower Party levels.

Just curious on other views of this.

[AceHigh]

This subject is covered very well in TOP (big surprise!), see page 211.

[Nightwish]

If you think you're going to be bluff raised, shouldn't you lead out?

[Richard Berg]

I don't agree. Assuming you don't have a good tell, or knowledge that the villian bluff-raises far too often, the potential for this move to be in their playbook is very -EV.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree. Assuming you don't have a good tell, or knowledge that the villian bluff-raises far too often, the potential for this move to be in their playbook is very -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]
Reread the original post and the reference to the prevalence of the bluff raise (which, BTW, I totally agree with when it comes to this Party 15 game).

[Senor Choppy]

It depends on how often you think you'll be bluff-raised vs. other actions (like how often your opponent will have and raise with the best hand). But if you think your opponent will often check a missed draw but might raise if you bet, and you're willing to always call, then yes, a bet is often going to be correct.

[Tosh]

I think in a lot the situations where you lead out with a marginal hand is that you can easily fold to a raise. When there are bluff raises going on you can't fold as often and with opponents that bet when checked to anyway, betting seems less correct IMO. I also think this river betting means you should check raise more with decent hands.

[steveyz]

If there are a lot of bluff raises, you should be betting with your decent hands hoping that your opponent raises. With mediocre hands, check calling is best. I don't like river check-raises in most situations if you have a good/decent hand because most players will check behind you with a mediocre hand. They will sometimes bet with a pure bluff, but they are not gonna call your raise. I think unless you have a very specific read on your opponent, you will miss a lot more bets by checking the river with a decent hand, then you will gain by a bluff betting when they would folded.

[Peace Frog]

You want to check into those opponents who not only bluff too much, but tend to see value where none exists.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I think in a lot the situations where you lead out with a marginal hand is that you can easily fold to a raise. When there are bluff raises going on you can't fold as often and with opponents that bet when checked to anyway, betting seems less correct IMO. I also think this river betting means you should check raise more with decent hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your opponent bluff-raises too little, you should bet since you can fold to a raise.

If your opponent bluff-raises too much, you should bet since you can call a raise.*

If your opponent bluff-raises just the right amount of the time such that neither calling nor folding feels comfortable, you can consider checking and calling.

* In the extreme case, suppose that 51% of the time he raises, it is with a worse hand; obviously you should bet. But even if he only raises with a worse hand say 40% or 35% of the time, you should still bet provided that you have other reasons for doing so, such as being called by a worse hand that might check behind; you lose a little bit of money on average when he raises, but betting out is still the best play.

[IlliniRyRy]

I completely agree with Tosh, there are so many situations where I'm putting myself in a tough spot by leading out because people are CONSTANTLY raising draws or just complete garbage altogether and it's frustrating when I'm forced to fold to raises on the turn. I've never liked check calling either, but in 15-30 you have to find a way to show down your hand. One effective play I'm always making is leading out on the flop and then check raising the turn when I know I'm good because they always do the betting for me. The last thing I'm worrying about in these games is giving people free cards because there's always action no matter what.