A check/raised river

[PokerBabe(aka)]

This is a hand I played in the 15-30 at Bellagio yesterday.

2 limpers and sb completes. I check in bb with K /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Flop is 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Sb checks, I bet, limper1 raises sb makes it 3 bets and I make it 60. Limper and sb both call.

Turn is the J /images/graemlins/club.gif. Sb now bets right out /images/graemlins/confused.gif. I have the 2nd nuts (obviously) and I raise. I figure there is only one A /images/graemlins/heart.gif in the deck /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Both opponents call as though I was invisible.

River puts the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif onboard. Sb now checks. I check, as I don't really feel too happy about those turn calls.

Limper one bets and now sb raises. Here is where it gets bizarre. The sb tells me he has a set before I make a move to call. Huh?

What's my action?

LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[etizzle]

well, sb MAY have A /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif or something like that, or perhaps a smaller flush. I think you call and expect her to turn of the nut flush like 50% of the time. sb has shown a lot of strength.

[elysium]

hi babe

no babe, you don't win here. you mucked? no? you didn't muck? hmmmm. well then you called? no? you didn't call?! oh, you're kidding. you called. o.k. calling is fine here.

yeah babe, you don't know the SB very well in this one. calling is almost always correct in this type situation when you know you're beat, but you don't know your opponent well enough to make the laydown. yes, yes. you would have saved a little here, but over the long run, you are far better off calling, and showing a little grit, just to keep them from running over you those times you have a hand that is worth showing down for 1 bet but not two.

yes, yes babe. anytime you showdown the second nut hand, you have shown a little babe grit. you must keep them honest. don't worry babe, you'll get him the next time. it was a he, right? yeah, i thought so.

guy sandbags the nuts....whew.

[MarkD]

I think checking the river was a big mistake. This seems like a pretty clear value bet on the river.

[Gabe]

Hi Babe,

[ QUOTE ]
I check, as I don't really feel too happy about those turn calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be overjoyed by them. There is too much chance of the river getting checked through for me not to bet. Given the way the river went down, I'm pretty sure 3-betting would be the most profitable course of action.



There are three possibilities:
1. They are playing normally.
2. They are playing too deceptively.
3. SB thinks limper is bluffing.

Love,
Gabe

[Richard Berg]

[ QUOTE ]
Given the way the river went down, I'm pretty sure 3-betting would be the most profitable course of action.


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree. Even if you hold the best hand, you win the same amount by going for the overcall. When you don't hold the best hand, you save a bet; when you face someone willing to cap without (necessarily) the nuts, you save yourself a lose-lose decision.

[worm33]

3 betting is definitly the best play. The chances of you not having the best hand here are about 1%. The limper isnt going to raise the nut flush on the flop in an unraised pot, especialy a vegas player. He might have a 9 high flush which 95% of the time he wont be able to get away from even for 2 more cold on the river. 3 bet.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

I didn't 3 bet the river for one primary reason: The sb told me he had a set as he was checkraising the river. /images/graemlins/confused.gif IF he really had a set, why would he tell me when it was highly likely that information would lead me to RAISE rather than call.? THat seemed so strange that I actually thought he had the Ace high flush and was trying to get me to put in another raise so he could win another 2 bets (assuming that limper called as well). Maybe I am over thinking this, but I cannot imagine any other motive from an opponent here.

I called the 60 as did the limper. Sb showed a set of Jacks, I showed my K high flush and the limper folded without a peep.



LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Diplomat]

Hi Babe,

Bet the river and call one raise. If it comes back to you for 2 bets cold, then you have a tough decision. Checking the river cannot be correct without a super-human read.

-Diplomat

[Boris]

I would just pay off and not worry about it.

[Peace Frog]

[ QUOTE ]
He might have a 9 high flush which 95% of the time he wont be able to get away from even for 2 more cold on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where on earth do you play poker? I want to meet people who can't get off a 9-high flush 95% of the time here.

[ike]

Alot of people feel bad about lying and wouldn't tell you they had a set here unless they did. They're gonna have to show it to you and look at your face if you call them. I'm not saying its wrong or anything like that, but it would make a lot of people uncomfortable. Think about your opponent, is he the type of guy who would tell you and be genuinely happy for you when you showed and folded your two pair as he spreads his set or is he serious about the game and trying hard to win? If he's the kind who'd be embarassed to lie then he's got the set and you should 3bet, if he isn't then you have some thinking to do. I'm personally not at all surprised he showed what he said he would, people do this all the time in Turning Stone games.

[Senor Choppy]

I doubt the sb is good enough to put you on a flush, know that it's not to the nuts, and think he can induce a raise by telling you he's got a set to disguise the fact that he has the nuts. I think he's got a set 80% of the time here, and a missed flush draw or something bizarre another 20% of the time. BTW, are you actually a woman? If so, I think the odds of him telling the truth here go up to 90%+.

If he would've just called I would've check-raised. Since he was raising already, you should call and hope for an overcall from the other player.

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Where on earth do you play poker? I want to meet people who can't get off a 9-high flush 95% of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you can meet them in any cardroom in the country. These people would be the exception, not the norm.

[skp]

I don't think that you should at all be worried when you put a raise in on the turn and no one makes it 3 bets. It's a near cinch that you have the best hand when the board does not pair on the river. When you have a King high flush, it's usually more comforting to have two opponents rather than one as one of them will be drawing to the nut flush (which means that the othetr does not have the nut flush).

I had a hand in a live 50-100 game on Saturday when this principle came into play.

I had raised UTG with KcQs. A very good player in MP 3 bet. Both players in the blinds called. I called.

Flop: Jc9c7c

VGP bets and we all call.

Turn: Ts

I bet. VGP raises in tempo. sb coldcalls and the bb folds.

The sb's coldcall made it clear to me that VGP was either on 88 or was trying the old raise the turn and check the river play with a hand he felt might be best but vulnerable (like a set). I thought this because I put the sb on the Ace of clubs draw which means that VGP could not have a flush given that he has neither the Ac or the Kc and he had 3 bet me preflop. So, I had an easy 3 bet on the turn. They both called.

I bet the river and the VGP made a good laydown (he later told me that he had a set and I believe him). The sb called me with presumably some kind of pair. He showed only the Ac after I tabled my hand.

Getting back to the river play on your hand:

I think that you have an easy bet on the river. You got a little lucky in that the player behind you bet. He could easily have been on a draw to the nut flush and simply checked the river costing you a call or two on the river.
The sb checkraises the dude and says he has a set. But what he says makes no difference. You almost surely have the best hand. If you are convinced that the limper will overcall, you should just call (because there is a slight chance that the sb may have you beat). But I don't think that you can be sure that the limper will overcall. Conversely, the limper may call even if you 3 bet if he has a lower flush which he could have. I would 3 bet.

[hutz]

River puts the K onboard. Sb now checks. I check, as I don't really feel too happy about those turn calls.

This is a good thing. A 3-bet from someone might have been a tad worrisome. Cold calls on the turn in a multi-way pot are not scary when you hold the second nuts.

Bet the river.

[Peace Frog]

My sub-point was simply that a random Vegas player who holds a 9-high flush for 3 bets on the flop, 2 on the turn, a check/raise on the river, and now 3-bets... Should be able to figure out someone has a bigger flush. One exception might be if he's a player in a white chip game. The other exception might be if he's a world beater, realizes the bb is also a world beater, who knows that he's got sb beat and would now try to get him off what he suspects is a non-nut flush, but one that beats him. This mentality is as unlikely as the white chip mentality, which leads to my *main* point that calling is usually preferreable to 3 betting, because it's not likely a Vegas player holding a 9-high flush calls all bets here, but will likely overcall and it's better to pick up a bet this way rather than to risk a 4 bet by a better hand.

[Peace Frog]

The above post should be under your response to me below. Sorry.

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, are you actually a woman?

[/ QUOTE ]
the mere word "woman" so doesn't even start to get to the essence of the Babe. She is poker playing/golf playing/ machine who happens to be of a gender that makes her value bets oh so much more valuable (even though she doesn't value bet nearly enough) /images/graemlins/cool.gif. She'll meat you at the buffet for breakfast then take away your lunch money at the table.

BTW, I like the bet out/three bet on the river.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
River puts the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif onboard. Sb now checks. I check, as I don't really feel too happy about those turn calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not betting the river here is ridiculous. Horrible poker.

[elindauer]

Your opponent's comment makes me slightly more inclined to believe he has the nut flush, as that's what I've been shown the only times I've heard talk like this at a table (note: my live experience is limited).

Still, I don't think you can fold. Call. If it comes back capped, maybe you can make the pro laydown. I guess. Or something.

Good luck.
Eric

[elindauer]

I agree. After your turn raise is just called, you have to think you are ahead. Bet the river.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Thanks for the nice words M2d. You are also adorable...

LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[MoreWineII]

Man like woman. Man be nice to woman. Man try to impress woman. Man tell woman what cards he have.

Man lose pot.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Maybe Man was drinking More Wine? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Several of our posters have said that they believed the guy actually was telling the truth. Wouldn't you think that this would MORE LIKELY happen if the guy actually had the nut flush?. After 2 days, I am still trying to figure out why this talkative sb would admit to having a mere set here. Oh wait....he's a man and I'm a Babe /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I would like to know if the posters here would tell someone about their hand when it was NOT the nuts.

LGPG

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Gabe]

Hi Babe,

I find men tend to tell women the truth at the poker table. It may be a double reverse thing. Since women are so used to us lying to them they won't believe us when we tell the truth. Maybe it's because it will look bad to the other men to be seen lying to a woman, I'm not sure.

I thought you should have three bet the river, because the way the hand was played, you were large enough favorite to have the best hand. The fact that the guy told you what he had only added a snippet of confirmation and only because you are a woman. I find things work out best when I avoid over-thinking someones remarks about their hand.

On the other hand, slow playing the nut flush on the turn, is probably the biggest post-flop inappropriately deceptive move I see, but it isn't a common enough error not to three bet, in this case. (How was that sentence?)

Love you,
Gabe

[Clarkmeister]

I'm just glad she didn't fold.