store error in your favor- point it out or not?

[SlyAK]

When I was at my local Walmart a few days ago I made a $62 purchase, and gave the cashier $70.. (one 50 and one 20). She somehow thought that I gave her $100... and gave me $30 extra in change. I decided to pocket the money and not point out the error. So, what is the morality of this?

[submariner]

How can anyone say it's just "pretty bad", or even just "as bad as stealing"? It is stealing, period. You took money that you
knew belonged to the store. That's stealing.

I don't know how that store works, but in a lot of situations
like that, if the clerk is short at the end of the shift, the
difference comes out of their paycheck. So it's just as likely that you are stealing not from the store, but from a
minimum-wage clerk.

Jerk.

[Shaman]

This could be true. It was certainly true with regard to the dealer at my satellite table at the Orleans this past month. They took out from her poor paycheck some 70 bucks of which she was short after we had all made our buy-ins.

[BrettK]

Having worked at a bank for a reasonable length of time, I can tell you that if a teller ever gives you more than you are entitled to and it can be traced to your transaction, the institution will have no qualms about calling you and then removing the difference from your account. If the money is not available in your account, they also won't have to think twice about handing the matter over to the Collections Department or the Security Department. It's considered just as much *your* responsibility to walk away with the right amount of money as it is the teller's. However, it's obviously very likely that a teller who makes mistakes like this often will not have a job for long.

At most banks and many major convenience store chains, missing money is not taken from your paycheck unless they suspect you of theft.

I realize that you wanted input about morality, but this may be of *some* help to you.

Brett

[Dan Mezick]

The moral question is the surface question. A deeper question is: what actually occurred?

Certainly the store lost some money, and you gained some money, I am not denying that fact.

Even so, there is more here.

It's interesting that champion traders and champion poker players (and many champion golfers) adapt to these games, and as part of this process they throw out beliefs that 'no longer work' and adopt new beliefs that support success in these games.

Many beliefs that seem to work in these games seem to have originated in Asia.

One such belief is that the environment is a kind of mirror that reflects you back.

If you have this belief, you might conclude you have stolen something from yourself in a fundamental sense.

If you still agree, you might also conclude that such mirrorized 'stealing from yourself' may perceptibly depreciate your own self-value.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
How can anyone say it's just "pretty bad", or even just "as bad as stealing"? It is stealing, period. You took money that you knew belonged to the store. That's stealing.

[/ QUOTE ]
It takes effort to steal something.

Here, it would take effort not to keep the money.

Overall, society is harmed if resources have to be expended to prevent either transfer. In the first case, defense is much more difficult, and there is a clear net loss, so it is efficient to prohibit such transfers. In the second case, defense is easier, and there may be no net loss. It is not necessarily economically efficient to require people to return the money in that situation, so Hobbesian social contract theory may support keeping the money. I don't think it does, but it is not absolutely clear.

[Mayhap]

Isn't this what is meant by that old saying:
"What goes around, comes around?"
/M

[z32fanatic]

I usually think about the consequences of taking the extra money. For example, I cashed a savings bond at the bank and they gave me full value for it when it was only worth half as much. Will this cause someone to lose their job? Will this cause the bank to go out of business? No, I didn't think so, so I kept the money. If I was at a mom and pop store and they gave me extra money, I'd probably give it back, as they probably need it. If the money actually came out of the pocket of the cashier, I'd give it back. What if she undercharged your credit card? Would you bring it to her attention? I doubt it and that is basically the same thing as this.

[blackaces13]

Wouldn't giving the money back and getting an appreciative smile as well as a clear conscience, rather than feeling guilty enough about it a few days later to have to post on a poker site as to the morality of it have been worth the $30?

[steamboatin]

I might be complete scum, it would depend upon the individual. If the clerk is an ass, then I would most likely keep the money. The other night at the Sonic, the little girl that car hops gave me way to much change and I called her back and returned it with a tip. It was like 90 degrees at 10 PM and she overheated and clearly not at her best. She was working really hard and there was no way I was going to keep that money.

On the other hand if a vending machine messes up, I will buy all I can get and take complete advantage of the machine.

[PhatTBoll]

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand if a vending machine messes up, I will buy all I can get and take complete advantage of the machine.

[/ QUOTE ]

This reminds me of a funny thing that happened during my freshman year of college.

A couple of friends and I went to the ATM at the community center next to our dorm. One of us took out $50 and noticed that the machine spit out three 20's. After another withdrawal, we deduced that the guy charged with putting bills in the machines had accidentally filled the $10 slot with 20's. Hooray! So, we figured that $30 withdrawals were the most efficient way to "double" our money, since the ATM was rigged to give three 10's for a $30 withdrawal. I only made one such withdrawal, but each of my friends made four or five. I thought that it might eventually come back to bite me in the ass, and my balance was low.

We went back to our dorm, and told a couple people what we had discovered. An hour later, we walked outside. The line for the ATM was coming out of the community center and had wrapped around our dorm. There were easily over 100 people in line to use the same ATM. At some point, the machine ran out of money and the line dispersed.

About a month later, we received our balance statements and found that the bank had noticed the error and deducted from our accounts accordingly.

Morals of the story:

1. What goes around comes around

2. College freshmen are stupid.

[jdl22]

Let's Sklanskify this with a follow up.

What if you didn't notice the difference until you got home? How does the answer change if you live across the street from Walmart (sucks to be you) or 60 miles away.

[uuDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's Sklanskify this with a follow up.

What if you didn't notice the difference until you got home? How does the answer change if you live across the street from Walmart (sucks to be you) or 60 miles away.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is along the lines of what pzhon points out.

A few days ago I took my change at the grocery store and walked away before I realized the cashier had made an error in my favor of maybe 10 cents. I started to turn around to return it but then just thought "it's not worth it" and left. Had the error been even a little more, I would certainly have returned it.

But thinking about it now, to do that I would have to justify the cost of interrupting the cashier's next transaction, forcing several peoply to wait while I cleared my conscience. At what point is it worthwhile to take 20 seconds out of the lives of 5 people to return the money?

[CountDuckula]

Well, on a couple of occasions, I've withdrawn money from an ATM, and noticed that it gave me one extra $20 (the bills were stuck together or something). On each occasion, I walked into the bank and gave the money back. FWIW.

-Mike

[SlyAK]

Here are some thoughts..... at the time that I kept the extra money I thought, oh it's just Walmart's problem, and its a multi-billion dollar company. Who cares? (Not saying that it still isnt wrong to take money from a big company but you get the point, NO individual is hurt by me keeping the money).

Then about a day afterward, I thought that the clerk could be fired, or at least have the $30 taken out of a paycheck that is paltry already. I have pointed out errors like this before, but this time I didn't and I dont know why??? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

As far as what goes around comes around type of responses, I have certainly lost some money in my time so probably that is true enough.

FWIW: If I found someone's wallet I would certainly return it, and wouldn't take the money. I also had a time where I was walking down the road toward a store and found a $5 bill when I was in college, (and dirt poor). A few minutes later a couple high school kids stopped by and asked me if I had happened to find a $5 bill because one had flown out of their car's open window. I told them I had and gave them the $5.

As far as morality goes, I think it was a little poor morally on my part but not that horrible. I'm not losing any sleep over it, but I think I'll point it out the next time it happens. I dont see how it can be as bad as stealing though. To steal you have to INTENTIONALLY take something that isnt yours. I in no way did that, although yeah, I agree I should have pointed it out.

Sly

[SlyAK]

[ QUOTE ]
How can anyone say it's just "pretty bad", or even just "as bad as stealing"? It is stealing, period. You took money that you
knew belonged to the store. That's stealing.
I don't know how that store works, but in a lot of situations
like that, if the clerk is short at the end of the shift, the
difference comes out of their paycheck. So it's just as likely that you are stealing not from the store, but from a
minimum-wage clerk.
Jerk.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess we all make mistakes. I still dont feel that it is the same as stealing. Isn't there a difference, however small, between what happened in this situation and if I were to take $30 out of the cash register?

As I wrote in another post, the thing that bothered me about it afterwards was that I realized that it would probably come out of the clerk's pay.

Sly

[StableHand]

This is a very interesting discussion. Many valid points have been made. Many different angles have been covered. There may be MUCH more to this issue than what appears at first glance.

A few argue that the dilemma might be situational, or conditional; the cashier is poor, the bank is rich, time vs. money, effort, amounts etc.

These are all constructs, often made in hindsight (regardless of how we CHOOSE to act).

The issue of our self-image has also been brought, somewhat superficially, but I believe it is the issue that, on a very primal, and partly sub-conscious level, beyond social contracts, have the deepest impact on our actions. Not keeping the money, is the price we pay for deliverance from guilt; not so much in this particular instance, rather in all other situations where guilt has left it's acrid taste within us, and all the guilt that is a part of us. More than that - when situations like this present themself, we embrace them quickly, as they give us an opportunity to be cleansed from guilt, convince ourselves that we are morally just, and that we are righteous citizens.

~~~~~~~~~

This eposode reminded me of a story I read just yesterday;
Split Second Decision by Tommy Angelo:

[ QUOTE ]
<snip> “See that guy in the cowboy hat? Word is he’s some real slick poker player from Nevada and see that big greasy guy with the small stack in seat four? Joey was talking about the man who had just spit on him. “That’s Orren, the owner’s son. He only comes in sometimes, for these big poker games.” Joey got real quiet, right in my ear. “We don’t like him.”



The rest of the story, as I rendered Joey’s version, was that this Orren fellow lost big at poker in Vegas about a year ago, and in a childish rage, he challenged the Vegas pros to a big no-limit game up here at his Daddy’s casino in Idaho. Now they play once a month. All these men come all this way.



Joey said, “Just go on over there, Bo. Go look at all that money.”



I craned on tiptoes. “Looks like it’s all chips on the table. Cash doesn’t play?”



“Right.” Joey said.



I walked over and stood close enough to watch the big no-limit game, with my arms folded like I belonged there. A couple players glanced up at me and a security guard walked toward me. I had my suit on and I acted like a floorman, meaning, I did nothing. The players turned back to the game. The guard gave me a flicker of a grin and he went back to his corner.





I watched a few hands, all small pots, and I was about to return to Joey, when the guy in the cowboy hat raised it to $600 before the flop, and the only one who called him was Orren, from the big blind. I thought, okay, I’ll watch one more hand. The pot was $1300. Orren had two stacks of blacks left -- $4,000 – and the cowboy had him way covered. The flop came 8-5-5, twotone. Orren checked, and the cowboy checked behind. The turn was an offsuit three. Orren checked, and the cowboy checked again. The river was a queen. Orren bet all-in, $4,000.



The cowboy simultaneously spoke and showed. What he said was, “call.” What he showed was, pocket fives. He had flopped quads. Orren came all the way unhinged. He threw his cards up and over his shoulder. I saw them flutter past during reentry: a black king and a red queen.



Orren jammed his hand in his front pocket like he’d done it a million times. He pulled out a folded-in-half wad of hundred dollar bills that was so thick it was shaped like a teardrop. He undid the wide rubber band and squared the money into a brick. Then he began to count, one bill at a time, not onto the table, but from left hand to right, using his left thumb, in steady rhythm, with the top of the left stack becoming the bottom of the right.



My trance snapped when Orren suddenly stopped counting and thrust his right hand out, holding ten thousand dollars under my nose. Orren snapped at the dealer, “Deal me in. Ten thousand plays.” Then he barked at me, “Go get me another rack of black.”



Orren thought I was a floorman. And all the other players at the table were from out of town. And the real floorman was busy starting a new game on the other side of the room. Can you spell o-p-p-o-r-t-u-n-i-t-y? I took Orren’s money and nodded politely. “Yes sir.” <snip>

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.tommyangelo.com/

[Tommy Angelo]

"So, what is the morality of this?"

I think the best way to look at the whole affair is to be much aware that it's all a matter of degrees. It does matter if it was one penny or $1000. It does matter if individuals instead of companies suffer the consequences of your silence. It does matter if you have starving children at home or if you are rich. It all matters. The only thing that doesn't matter when it comes to whether or not you are left with a knot in your stomach, is what other people think.

There are two reasons to give the money back that you might want to examine as you examine yourself. 1) Because it will make you feel better. 2) Because the wonder-of-the-world that we call human society requires that a helluva lot of people do a helluva lot of co-operating. You get to choose what you are -- defector or co-operator -- time and time again.

I think it's fine and dandy to give selfishly, that is, to give (money, things, kind words) in order to gain that feel-good feeling. But I think reason two is more noble and consistent, and if adapted into your ethics, it will remove the guesswork when you get the wrong change at Walmart.


Tommy

[Peter Harris]

i always correct money errors. Simply as i'd like others to do the same, and money has little influence over my actions.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[SomethingClever]

For me, it depends on the store.

Mom and Pop type place? I'm giving the money back with a smile on my face.

Wal-Mart? Gimme a break. Unless I know for a fact that the poor clerk is going to get in trouble.

I keep it just to stick it to Wal-Mart. I don't even care about the extra money.

[Brian462]

I hate Walmart so I keep the money. If it was some other business that I actually appreciated then I would give it back.

[Al Schoonmaker]

I once had a similar incident at a deli in Grand Central Station. I pointed out that he had given me change for a twenty, but I had given him a ten. He took the ten and said nothing.
I said, "You could say something."
He snarled, "Whadaya want me to say?"
"You might try, "Thank you.'"
He very begrudgingly said it.
I wanted my ten back. I really felt cheated.
Regards,
Al

[balkii]

Take the money and give it the cashier outside of the store. They deserve it for not getting paid to work overtime.

[rjc199]

Similar situation,

What if an item has two price tags on it, one sale and one regular price. The sale has since ended and they forgot to remove the sale price. You buy the item and they charge you the sale price when you know that you should pay the full price. We could also invision the same situation with no price tags, but simply that the computer system hasn't been updated yet.

You purchase the item and see that they charged you less than it was supposed to be.

Does this change anything?

[rjc199]

New York city is a waste

[Dan Mezick]

yes. anytime you really feel human, go to NYC and be dehumanized, level off and get back in balance.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
I once had a similar incident at a deli in Grand Central Station. I pointed out that he had given me change for a twenty, but I had given him a ten. He took the ten and said nothing.
I said, "You could say something."
He snarled, "Whadaya want me to say?"
"You might try, "Thank you.'"
He very begrudgingly said it.
I wanted my ten back. I really felt cheated.
Regards,
Al

[/ QUOTE ]

Some people really really really suck.........

I have another one not related.. You know how sometimes supermarket scanners OVERcharge? In a lot of states they'll give you your product for free plus the cost of the item!! But in others they don't. Where I am now, one supermarket consistently overcharges.. I asked the manager what they do with the extra money that they make out of their convenient mistakes... do they donate it? or, do they profit from it? he wouldn't answer my question /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Easy E]

"It does matter if individuals instead of companies suffer the consequences of your silence."

Because companies are not made up of individuals? Because what affects companies doesn't affect individuals directly or not?

A bit of a slippery slope statement, Tommy?

[Easy E]

If you are serious, then maybe you have some things about yourself to consider here, Al?

[Easy E]

I usually correct money errors. I lapse sometimes depending on my mood, because I'm ethically challenged.

[bwana devil]

[ QUOTE ]
What if an item has two price tags on it, one sale and one regular price. The sale has since ended and they forgot to remove the sale price. You buy the item and they charge you the sale price when you know that you should pay the full price.

[/ QUOTE ]

given your scenario, in texas the store is legally obligated to honor the lower price.

[TripleH68]

I was at the track and was given an extra $100 in my change from the teller. Couldn't do it. Gave it back.

[Tommy Angelo]

ME: "It does matter if individuals instead of companies suffer the consequences of your silence."

EASYE: "Because companies are not made up of individuals? Because what affects companies doesn't affect individuals directly or not?

A bit of a slippery slope statement, Tommy?"

Not at all. Perhaps there is some out-of-context confusion? Supporting my sentence is this very thread, in which several people said that their decision to keep the money or not would be based on who would he suffer (or benefit) from their action.

Tommy

[Pot-A]

I always wondered what is truth and what is fiction

http://www.tommyangelo.com/articles/split_second_decision.htm

[Cerril]

By the way, out here in california at least (not sure if it's a federal or state law, we've got some pretty fun state laws) it's not legal for an employer to take mistakes out of an employee's wages. Obviously, especially for ignorant/unrepresented employees it still happens since there's the (improper) threat of 'or be fired' hanging over their heads. Getting fired for something like that is -also- not legal with some broad exceptions (temps, probation, multiple instances), but that's something you'd have to fight.

[Cazz]

The difference is the intention before the act.

In both cases after the act you have knowingly kept something that isn't yours. If you walk in somewhere with the object of stealing, you also have poor intentions when you walk in.

One is bad intent + bad act. The other is neutral intent (at least before) + bad act. A+B > A

Legally there are some crimes that recognize the purpose of the actor. With homocide there is murder (purposely causing the death of another) and man slaughter (acting recklessly or with intent to harm that results in death).

Often (usually?) there is no crime without criminal intent. If you put the money in your pocket without looking at it, you have committed no wrong. The end result is the same: you have money that should belong to Wal-Mart, yet you didn't do anything wrong.

[Michael Davis]

It is as bad as stealing, but also +EV. Stealing is often +EV.

-Michael

[Senor Choppy]

I don't think it's necessarily wrong to keep the money here. Watching out for the stupidity of others and saving them from themselves isn't necessarily a requirement of living morally. I think it could be argued that as long as you go about your business not doing anything to harm others, you're living a moral life.

You're making some kind of sacrifice to return the money once it's given to you, either spending time explaining what happened to the cashier, or driving back to the store to return it. It seems wrong that someone would be obligated to make any kind of sacrifice because someone else made a mistake if they don't want to do something immoral.

I think that if approached by the cashier later, and asked whether or not you were given $30 extra, you'd have to answer honestly to do the moral thing. But unless this other person is the one making the effort and taking the time to correct the mistake, I see nothing wrong with pocketing it and continuing on your way.