Raising with Ace-King

Is it a good practice to almost always raise with AKo from any position. What are the considerations to contemplate when UTG?


How different dose one play AKs from AKo?


I'm not sure what to do. I appears that raising with AK does not materilize into more chips won. I feel that the times AK improves is slightly less that when it does not improve.


Thank you for any information.


RL

You probably want to read a book or two on this one, since it is a subject covered in at least three books I can recall.


AKo is a great hand shorthanded. So if you can raise to reduce players, than do it. However, low limit games often feature players who will not fold to a raise. In that case, I would limp with AK in most situations and play faster when I hit the flop.


Mojay

Mojay,


Why is considered a great hand, short handed or otherwise? It looks like strictly a drawing hand to me. All one has is two high cards with only 6 ways to make a good pair or perhaps two really good pairs. I guess you could also make a ace high straight but that too seems like along shot!


Because it appears to be a drawing hand it makes sense to just call before the flop and if it hits then raise or check-raise.


RL

AK can win shorthanded unimproved. That is it's first advantage...the fewer players in the pot, the more likely nobody will hit the flop and the AK will be the best hand. Second, the AK will improve to one pair half the time. When it does hit, you can be very confident you have the best hand in shorthanded play. And you have top kicker. In shorthanded play, you will get a lot of action with your top pair top kicker and you will usually take down a bundle of dough.


Thus, AK is very valuable in shorthanded games.


Now, let's talk about some disadvantages in full ring games. 1) It won't win unimproved. 2) People won't call with top pair low kicker, or at least you won't get a ton of action. 3) It is far more likely you are out against two pair, trips, or a big flush or straight draw. Now, you're losing lots of money with your top pair top kicker. So, in ring games, yes it is a drawing hand. But the fewer players in, the more you like AKo.


Mojay

As a general rule if you always raised it couldn't be too wrong. I think the main consideration is position and how many people are in the pot. While youw oudl alwasy raise in early and middle position you may not want to raise in late position after many callers.


This is because one more bet wont drive anyone out and you will make the pot so large that everyone will have the odds to stick with their draws on the flop. What you want in this situation is to be able to raise on the flop if you hit. If you raise pre-flop, people may "check to the raiser" and you will nto be bale to drive anyone out.


Similarly, you may want to just call on the blinds with it if four or so people are in. Again, you wont drive anyone out and will have to act first on the flop and not be able to drive people out if the pot is large.


AKs is another matter. Here you don't mind playing it in huge raised pots. Now, if you hit your flush draw (which will be to the nuts)you want the pot big enough to encourage people to stay (plus, top pair, top kicker might hit and hold up too).


The real problem with AK is playing it correctly when you miss the flop.


Regards,


Paul Talbot

Paul,


Ok, so I should raise in aerly position, lets say from 1 to 3 seats to the left of the BB is this correct? And one main reason is to make other players fold according to iammojay (above poster) and yourself. This will improve the strength of AKo. That makes good sense. The fewer players the less chance of someone having a better hand.


I like the idea of holding off the raise when many other players are already in. It is an interesting comment that raising and making a large pot will tend to keep other players in the hand. Is this what other posters refer to as "pot odds"? You mentioned odds.


After raising from early position and the flop is a total miss. Does one check, bet or fold at this point.


"The real problem with AK is playing it correctly when you miss the flop. " Sounds like a diffuclt thing to know. The few times I have played and missed I generally will call one bet to see if I make a pair.


Thanks,


RL

"I like the idea of holding off the raise when many other players are already in. It is an interesting comment that raising and making a large pot will tend to keep other players in the hand. Is this what other posters refer to as "pot odds"? You mentioned odds."


Yes, the "pot odds" are the odds the pot is offering you at the moment the bet is to you. So say you raise on the button after six people call. The BB calls and everyone else does. The flop comes something like AT8. A great flop for you but your bet will make it 15 bets to the next person and those to your right might be getting 18 or 20:1 which means they are correct to call with KQ, QJ, KJ, J7, 96 and the like plus any pair and any backdoor flush draw. Even small pairs will stay in (and may be gettign the correct odds to do so). Given that several people will call, there aren't too many cards that can come off onthe turn or river that wont be scary for you. A play that is seldom used here is checking the flop so that you can make a double sized bet ont he turn. Mason has written of using this play, but it is somewhat contraversial since you are giving a free card.


As far as missing the flop, it depends on how well you can read your opponents and how likely it is that your hand is best. Against only one or two opponents you should almost always bet out, against 3 or 4 it depends much more on the flop. These are really instances where you'll need a fair amoutn of experience to succeed. Against 1 or 2 oppoennts I'll usually bet the flop and then often the turn if the board isn't scary.


Regards,


Paul Talbot

It's not so much that fewer players in means less chance of someone having a good hand. You aren't going to drive out better hands than AK! The point of raising AK early isn't really to limit the field. That, as Jim Brier once said, confuses cause with effect. The idea is: you probably currently hold the best hand. Rather than allowing your opponents to try and draw to a better hand for one bet, you make it two bets to call. Now if most of them fold, fine. Your AK now has a good chance of winning unimproved. If they all call, that's also fine. You've gotten a lot of money into the pot with the best or close to the best hand. What you haven't allowed them to do is take a cheap shot at the flop to take you down. The golden rule of poker is, when you have the best hand, make them pay.


Not raising AK in late position is a bit of a peculiarity. The idea is that by not raising AK preflop you give up a small amount of profit by not raising the best hand because you believe that you can make this money back plus more by raising the flop and giving people a bad price to draw against you. A hand like a gutshot straight draw will be able to call the flop for one bet and be correct to do so, but not for two. Once again the theme is not so much "driving players out" but giving them the choice between folding and giving up the pot or drawing incorrectly versus you and putting too much money into the pot.


If you raise AK from early position and miss, it depends how many callers you have. With 7 cold callers you should check and decide whether or not to take a card off depending on what your opponents do. With, say, one caller, you should generally just keep betting until you are raised. A situation like 3 callers is a judgement call and depends partly on what you know about the players. Obviously what you do will also depend a lot on the texture of the flop. A flop like 789 all of one suit where you hold none of that suit is obviously a lot worse than a flop like 225 rainbow.


Chris

OK, I disagree with Chris here. The golden rule is not, "When you have the best hand, make them pay." The golden rule is, "Win the most money possible."


Look, the bottom line is that your instincts are correct. Don't raise with this hand when there are already several callers in. It is not just for deception, although letting all your opponents know, "Hey I have two high cards!" can be a disadvantage. It is about keeping the pots low and allowing your opponents to make mistakes.


Talbot said it best. You raise with lots of players already in, and all you're doing is making it correct for them to call with just about anything after the flop...and that is assuming you have made your hand.


And, btw, just because you have AKo before the flop does not mean you have the best hand. After all, 22 will beat AKo more than 50% of the time, and in a ten-handed pot, I'll take a JTs because of its big hand potential over AKo every time.


But, like Talbot said, you wouldn't lost THAT much if you raised OR limped with AKo every time. Because what is FAR more important is how you play it after the flop. And that is not a question that can be answered in one post on a Beginner's Questions bulletin board. Good luck!


Mojay

Check out 20-40 hand posted 7/16 by Mike in the medium stakes forum.

Holly Cow,


Boy do I have a lot to learn. I'm going to have to read the post again at least a couple of more times.


I now know why I droped some money my first couple times out. These guys are SERIOUS players. It's not my typical poker night with boys which includes poker, food and interesting conversation.


I have a shit load homework to do.


Thanks for you help and reference to the 20-40 post.


RL