AQ the monster laydown

[Jason Strasser]

Really interesting hand IMO. Second hand of a 200 SNG I limp from UTG+2 with AQo. A player who on the first hand went all in to steal the 25 in blinds, and who I have in my notes as "crazy fish", min raises to 30. Like the flop play in a limit shorthanded game, this means nothing.

Button, SB, BB, and I come along for the ride.

Flop A95, 2 diamonds. Checked to me, I bet 150. Fishy calls, and a player who I see often, but for some reason have no notes on, calls from the button. The rest fold.

Turn: A diamond. I think and check, crazy fish goes all-in. Right as I am prepared to call, the player on the button calls the all-in. I fold.

Comments appreciated.

-Jason

[NotMitch]

I think you have to fold here. Button has to have something since he knows there is a chance you have something (which you do) so he has more to worry about that just the crazy fish. Sure looks like a flopped set or something like KQd and more likely the set.

[fatduck]

Someone who flopped a set is dreaming of the board pairing and giving someone trips against their boat. Good fold.

[Jesse Richman]

If the button has "crazy fish" in his notes too, he could be calling with any pair here (unlikely to have called on the flop though), or an A with a weaker kicker. (VERY possibly an A with weak kicker, after calling your raise preflop and smooth calling on the flop.) I'm not sure I like your fold. I think its primarily dependent on your read on the button. Absent all other info, I probably call online and fold in real life.

[MikeGuz]

Actually he LIMPED from MP with AQo. Mistake no. 1 then flopping Top pair 2nd best kicker he makes a smallish bet. Mistake no. 2. Then layes it down. But considering the way he played this hand from pre flop to lay down it was the least of the mistakes.

If one insists on limping with a good hand per flop then when a "fish" raises I like the reraise here to see where I stand. I will be raising or folding in this position.

No testorine problems here.

[Dominic]

was that supposed to be "testosterone?"

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
a player who I see often, but for some reason have no notes on,

[/ QUOTE ]
You have no notes on that player because the player hasn't done anything that surprised you. That probably means the player isn't crazy, so you need a very strong hand to overcall. You may have the best hand, but I think the percentage play is to fold.

[Jason Strasser]

Hey Mike,

I used to raise AQo, now I limp. I raise AQs. This is when the blinds are low, and when I'm out of position.

In my game, a typical opponent will not call an opening raise with AJo. Raising AQo where I will not get calls from many dominated hands, and playing a larger pot out of position is not good. If I had good position, I would have no problem raising. AQ also has great value IMO when the flop comes Axx, because people with hands like AJ and AT and worse will often passively pay you off. It's also easy to fold to a lot of aggression, because you haven't made a big pot.

My bet on the flop was exactly the pot. By my book that is not a smallish bet, but a standard bet.

[ QUOTE ]
If one insists on limping with a good hand per flop then when a "fish" raises I like the reraise here to see where I stand. I will be raising or folding in this position.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fish called my flop bet and raised me all-in on the turn. How do I reraise here? When do you suggest I reraise?

I think you have a few of the details of this post off,

-Jason

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: A diamond. I think and check, crazy fish goes all-in. Right as I am prepared to call, the player on the button calls the all-in. I fold.

Comments appreciated.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

A push and a call behind here is enough to convince me to fold this early, without horrendous amount committed to the pot, and a stack left to work with.

eastbay

[Jason Strasser]

Eastbay,

I forget if u play the 50 or 100s. Either way, do you raise or limp AQo in early to mid position?

[Desdia72]

that you posted where you had to fold. did'nt the other trip hand you had have to be folded because of a flush board?

[Jason Strasser]

Yes it was. But that hand was completely different for a number of reasons.

-Jason

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Eastbay,

I forget if u play the 50 or 100s. Either way, do you raise or limp AQo in early to mid position?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played both, but am currently playing 50s.

In L1/L2, I currently limp for the same reasons you gave, although I have vacillated on this point over time, as there are more idiots in the $55s who will call the raise with Ax.

eastbay

[Eder]

After limping AQ...if flop is Axx...how do you or Jason bet this at early stages? The reason I ask is often LP limper catches the 2pr with his weak A on this flop or thinks his A9 is good...whats the best way to find out from poor position like this?

Btw I have been betting 3xBB here preflop but on low SnG's normally many Ax call here.

Thanks in advance.

[MikeGuz]

"Turn: A diamond. I think and check, crazy fish goes all-in. Right as I am prepared to call, the player on the button calls the all-in. I fold."

So the fish didn't raise you all in on the turs you checked he went all in you folded. Look if you want to play no limit hold'em as a weak tight calling station that's your call. All I am pointing out is it is wrong to limp with AQ as a "rule" and it is also wrong to give draws painless draws. That's all! Just my humble opinion.

What is this stuff about YOUR GAME I thought you were talking about a Single Table on line. Where some of the worst players on the planet live - that's why I like them.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
"Turn: A diamond. I think and check, crazy fish goes all-in. Right as I am prepared to call, the player on the button calls the all-in. I fold."

So the fish didn't raise you all in on the turs you checked he went all in you folded. Look if you want to play no limit hold'em as a weak tight calling station that's your call. All I am pointing out is it is wrong to limp with AQ as a "rule" and it is also wrong to give draws painless draws. That's all! Just my humble opinion.

What is this stuff about YOUR GAME I thought you were talking about a Single Table on line. Where some of the worst players on the planet live - that's why I like them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike,

Might want to stick around for awhile before coming out firing like this. Jason is no weak-tight calling station and I guarantee you that he doesn't like AQo "as a rule." Only in this particular spot, where his arguments about why make a lot of sense.

And grouping all "Single Table on line" games together is ridiculous. The PP $215s are not inhabited by "the worst players on the planet".

eastbay

[Dominic]

if it's a full table, you limp with AQ in early position...if it's folded around to me in MP, I'll probably raise it...

[t_perkin]

Did either you or the board have the Ad?

I think this is pretty important for working out the likely holdings of the other players.

If you couldn't see the Ad I would put it with one of the other players, in which case this is an easy fold.

If the Ad is on the board then it is very hard to put the button on a hand.
He should be betting the set on the flop, after all he has you betting and the fish calling with 2 diamonds to the flush; it would be a very bad slowplay here.
He could have suited connector diamonds with either a pair or a gutshot.
Or he could have AQ (arguably misplayed PF) thinking you will fold, seeing as you checked.

If you have the Ad then I think I could call this. So long as you are not against a set you are well ahead, and niether of them are likely to have a set played this way.



Just some thoughts, but I think the location of the Ad is pretty important to this hand.

Tim

[RPatterson]

What the hell are you talking about Mike. He bet the flop and then check-folded the turn. How is that playing like a calling station.

It's wrong as a "rule" to limp with AQ? You are ridiculous.

And giving people painless draws when you have bet the pot? You are either being retarded on purpose or are a total jackass.

[MikeGuz]

Look I assume Jason posted the hand to get some feedback.

I was giving him my honest assessment of how I saw the hand. I have been playing this game successfully for a long time and to be limping with a big A in Mid position, calling a small raise, then making a small bet on the flop -small in comparison to the stacks, that is a few big mistakes specially with that flop. That's all - BTW he played this hand weak tight/OK - I am only commenting on THIS hand.

[Jason Strasser]

Good point.

I did not have Ad, I had Qd.

-Jason

[Jason Strasser]

Crazy fish showed Q6 hearts for queen high. The button showed A8s, for a hand I would've beaten. I still like the fold.

Thanks for the comments.

-Jason

[MikeGuz]

Jason,

Sorry it worked out this way but if you can't see how horribly you mis-played this hand how you mis-judged your opponents I feel for you. Maybe you are just in a rut but in NLHE harnessed agression goes a long way to winning.

Good luck in the future.

[WarmonkEd]

[ QUOTE ]
Jason,

Sorry it worked out this way but if you can't see how horribly you mis-played this hand how you mis-judged your opponents I feel for you. Maybe you are just in a rut but in NLHE harnessed agression goes a long way to winning.

Good luck in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're not very nice.

[berya]

"then making a small bet on the flop -small in comparison to the stacks"

What are you talking about the guy bet the pot.

P.S. by the way I would have probably called the all-in because one I suck and two I can start another one if I'm wrong. The fish is crazy, the button can easily have a weaker ace, you are getting more than 2:1 when it gets back to you, you can redraw.

[t_perkin]

Did he have the 4-flush? or was it a different suit?

It is pretty borderline, but I think the laydown is good.

Tim

[hockey1]

This is one of the many very good reasons to raise preflop with AQ. Why didn't you?

[gergery]

J,

I like this play, and also call with AQ here. I prefer to see a flop vs. an overaggressive player, as you can be more sure you’re ahead. Crazy fish is just as likely to come over the top all-in preflop and then you’ve got to fold or go with a coinflip/2:1 favorite. Whereas if you play this way and see the flop, you are almost certainly ahead of fishy and he’s drawing to 3-5 outs so you’re a ~8:1 favorite.

I think you are behind to the other player. I put him on 55, A9/A5, or flush+gutshot draw with his flopcall, with 99 or AK as backup possibilities (if he knows fishy and agrees with my trapping philosophy with them). Outside chance he has AJ/AT. Fishy could have A2/T9/66.

Btw, the other poster who noted your ‘mistakes’ has consistently given bad advice on these boards, imho.

--Greg

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
Jason,

Sorry it worked out this way but if you can't see how horribly you mis-played this hand how you mis-judged your opponents I feel for you. Maybe you are just in a rut but in NLHE harnessed agression goes a long way to winning.

Good luck in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]


http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=500237& page=3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=all&fpart=all

[MikeGuz]

Just trying to help.

[durron597]

I'm inclined to agree with hockey1 here. You always talk about how you like to play earlier streets so you have easy decisions (or no decisions) on later streets. By raising with AQ you make the flop much easier to play.

[mackthefork]

...........Strasser is the loosest LAG in the known universe! /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards Mack

[codewarrior]

I assume you limp with both QKo and QKs or do you raise with them suited out of position? QK is a big trouble hand for me.

Also, did you used to (or still do) play pool in the Green Room? If so, we may know each other.

(Please tell me you don't go to Puke) /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[MikeGuz]

Mitch,

Not sure what to make out of the post but enjoyed reading it. AQ is the same sort of hand as JJ - I tend to play semi agressive and semi tight. Hell the other day I was in a live tournament with thie guy on my left who raised with all kind of stuff but Just called UTG maniac small raised checked to me I fold AQ limper on my left raised all in with KK - I just knew he had this monster and the maniac had some suited rags. All I lost here was my bb. But I had a good read on this guy and acted on it.

Any way thanks for posting the archive.

[triplc]

I'll typically limp with AQo early (occasionally fold...very rarely raise) at a full table, especially out of position. I look at it this way...feel free to flame.

If I limp for 15 chips or 20 chips and it goes around the table unraised, I figure to be able to play it strongly if an A or Q-high flops uncoordinated. If I miss, or get raised by a player I respect, I lose 1 BB.

Conversely, if I raise to 75 or 100 out of position, and get reraised, I'm likely in trouble (AK, KK, QQ), or a small dog (any pair) and should fold...and I'm out a much healthier chunk of my stack. If I call the reraise and miss, I'm out even more. If an A or Q hits, I will lead out because of all the hands that would likely reraise me, only two (AK, AA) put me in big trouble on the A, and one more on the Q (QQ). Of course, trips or two pair would be a rather nasty predicament, too.

I guess for me it boils down to this. Unless you have a very tricky (or lousy...your call) player that will limp with AA, KK, QQ or AK, if my limp makes it around that gives me a lot of information, and it's information that tells me I'm up against inferior hands or smaller pairs. If I raise and get called or reraised, now I'm betting out of positing into an different, and better, range of hands.

As for the hand in question, I would probably call here. Trip Aces are still likely to be best with a Q kicker, and even though I might get busted, I can likely live with myself getting busted with trip aces. If someone's already got the boat or AK, tip your cap and sign up for the next one.

Play well,

CCC

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
Mitch,

Not sure what to make out of the post but enjoyed reading it. AQ is the same sort of hand as JJ - I tend to play semi agressive and semi tight. Hell the other day I was in a live tournament with thie guy on my left who raised with all kind of stuff but Just called UTG maniac small raised checked to me I fold AQ limper on my left raised all in with KK - I just knew he had this monster and the maniac had some suited rags. All I lost here was my bb. But I had a good read on this guy and acted on it.

Any way thanks for posting the archive.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I learned from the thread is that AQo with deep stacks and out of position is tricky. It is similar to AQo in a cash NL game. If the people behind you play poorly and will play Ax and go too far with it AQo is a great hand. But if the people behind you play well they are mostly going to be folding worse hands, and reraising better hands. Also if they do just call they are not likely to pay you if when you hit. So that is why I am cautious with AQ in this spot.

[MikeGuz]

Guess that can be said about alot of hands - I happen to like to play AQo agressivally at the right type of table. I will muck it to at the drop of a hat if I think I am beat. Thing is limping with most any hand IMHO is WRONG in NLHE - Personally I like to play Axs and suited coupled against big fields so I don't raise with them. Most ther hands I am raising or folding it's the only way I know where I am specially against the blinds I just hate giving a couple of rags a free ride to beat my big A. Anyway this AQ debate can go on for ever I have to go to trump to buy into the $500 for tomorrows tournament.