Waiting until turn to raise KK.

[SnakeRat]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>


What do you think about flop and turn play?

I played it this way because I thought I would have much more equity on the turn if a good card fell.

[Nick709]

You have to raise that flop. Bet the river.

[Nick709]

What happened to the river?

[pokerkai]

With two people to act behind you, I think you should raise the flop.

[Blarg]

I raise the flop. First because I make more money if I have the best hand, but at least as importantly because it might chase out some people with three-flushes or backdoor straights.

If another spade hits the turn, anyone with a spade(which could be LOTS of people) now has a flush draw and will stay around longer, either making, say, a second pair to beat your pair of kings, or even trips, or flushing. On the straight, you had the 5, another straight card hit, for the same type of problem. Now anyone with a 6 is staying to the river. Regardless of the size of the pot, in lower limit games.

I raise boards with two suited or connected cards hard on the flop if I can to get the backdoors out. The more of them there are, the more likely at least someone will make a very threatening draw on the turn, in which case your pot equity plunges dramatically.

Miller recommends sometimes waiting till the turn when the board looks like you won't shake anyone off with a flop raise. This flop has some of the characteristics of that kind of flop. But I wouldn't wait in this situation. You have to get the backdoor draws out and since there are so many people playing aces in low limit games to at least the flop, you really have to try to get them the heck out of the pot before the turn or the river gives them another ace to pair up and beat you. Kings are both very strong and very, very vulnerable in low limit games, so my take on it is that you have to play them very hard.

On the turn, I like your raise. Make people drawing to spade or heart flushes pay dearly to do it. With three other people in the pot and two strong draws on board, chances are very good you're going to lose, so you have to make as big a profit as possible on those times you win. Push that money into the pot!

If a straight has already been made, so be it, but it's not the most likely thing. Unfortunately, a holding like 6,4 or 9,6 is not incredibly unlikely out of the blinds, which at least in low limits most people play with virtually any holding at all. I'd be much less scared of a bet that looks like a made straight out of a spot other than the blinds.

The SB may have tripped up on the flop, too, but playing your good hands meekly just on the chance that someone has tripped up on you would be giving up much more than you gain.

[SnakeRat]

I deleted it since I realized it was fairly obvious.
Here it is again for those that are curious.


Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, SB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

River: (17 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks. I keep posting hands where I do this, you would think I would learn.

Final Pot: 17 BB

[SnakeRat]

The hand that he recommends waiting on is one which is more vulnerable than this one.
The very reason I waited is because I thought my hand was so vulnerable, maybe it was wrong though.

Perhaps the pot was too big for this play to be profitable, I am curious what people think.

[brian0729]

I think you did fine so far.

[MAxx]

I raise the flop. My main reason is so I can raise again if someone reraises me b/c I want to raise again. My second reason is so they fear me raising again on the turn, which I will.

[Blarg]

Yes, Miller's hand in his example wasn't nearly as strong, and raising with pocket 10's could easily be raising with a hand that could get snapped off in the next card or two if it wasn't beaten already. Losing with it wouldn't be nearly as unexpected, and not raising with it wouldn't be giving up nearly as much pot equity. Seeing the turn could help establish what your equity really was without giving too much up in the process.

Losing with a hand as strong as pocket kings because you failed to protect the pot would be a major loss, though, so you have to push them very, very hard. You give up an enormous amount of pot equity not raising with them on the flop, and give your opponents many chances to drastically improve their own pot equity, at your expense.

It hands like this, in the long run it is much cheaper to raise than call.

[Navers]

you'll have the best hand with that flop more often than you think. Don't wait till the turn. People won't care about flop raises in low-limit poker that much, so try to give them crappy odds to call but remember, you want them to call with those crappy odds.

[Blarg]

If you mean the kings, we agree. That's what I'm saying.

We were also addressing the 10's, though. Miller is trying to get across that you don't lose too much equity not raising with a pair of 10's on a flop with a coordinated board that looks like nobody is going to fold on even if you raise. And so sometimes it's worth surrendering that equity to gain something else.

Waiting till the turn with an easily dominated hand like pocket 10's can have some advantages that outweigh the loss of pot equity that comes with not raising the flop with those 10's.

People will very likely check to you on the turn if you raise the flop. Ed emphasizes that this is a huge loss if you hit well, which basically probably means just getting another 10 and tripping up, and just get a single big bet in instead of being able to raise with your trips.

But you can also gain information which can be valuable(perhaps you find out someone has made their flush or straight and you can abandon your hand cheaply), or alternatively you can sometimes be in a situation where you are poised for a check raise or simply a raise which makes drawing hands or smaller pairs have to pay two big bets to call, with worse odds. Since you haven't bloated the pot with a flop raise earlier, they may have much worse odds to call with their draws or lower pairs than they would have if you had raised the flop.

If their call of a raise on the turn is a mistake, you make money when they do. If they recognize their call as a mistake and fold, your turn raise narrowed the field more than a flop raise would have.

So with a lesser hand, putting yourself in a position to raise can be worth the small loss of not raising the flop. With a bigger hand, though, you give up too much pot equity.

And in low limit games where everybody plays any Ace for any amount in any position, you really have to crank the bets up with a premium hand like KK to drive out the slackers calling with Ace-nothing before they hit that ace and kill your hand.