TT UTG

[Vehn]

30/60. Very last stinking hand of the day for me. I have 4 racks of chips in front of me and 6 extra in my hand. I look down at red tens and throw in my 6 chips. Its folded to a very rocky MP player who makes it 3 bets. He is the prototypical "never have to pay off" type of guy. He plays fast on the flop as well from what I've observed. I'm pretty sure he would 3 bet AK here, dunno about nines or eights. Everyone else folds back to me and I moan and get out a stack of chips so I can call. Flop is 7 high rainbow. What do I do?

[TwoNiner]

These situations are balls of fun. If by "never have to pay-off type of guy" you mean he is pretty straightforward on the later streets, how about check-call, then bet the turn if an ace or king doesn't hit. If you are raised maybe you could let it go if he's that predictable. If an ace or king came on the turn I would just fold it regardless of action if he's that rockish preflop.

[Nate tha' Great]

I don't know this player, but I'd think that 88/99 shouldn't be a concern since you were UTG here. He's either got AA-JJ or AK.

If this is one of those risk-averse players who would almost rather play with the cards turned up, I'd check-raise and fold to a 3-bet. I don't think you'll get reliable enough information by betting out on a rag flop since even a very tight player would be capable of raising AK there with position. I really doubt that he 3-bets a checkraise, however, without a better hand. Also, if he does have AK, the check-raise sets you up for the proper play of leading out on the turn.

[3rdCheckRaise]

Holding 10s out of position against an opponent who plays flop fast with any 3 betting hand i like to check call the flop, lead the turn and check call the river. I know its a bit of a weird play but I don't feel that my 10s deserve more money to spend or to win. Checking the river inducing enough bluffs from AK-AJs that makes up for what i'd loose when behind (or ahead). Once again its a bit weird...

[3rdCheckRaise]

I think folding the turn would be wrong...If i observe enough of you playing that way i would be taking shots at you whole night...not sure if you want to play whole night out of position with people jumping all over you...

[Lawrence Ng]

Against Mr. Rocky here, I would C/R the flop, if he 3bets, check fold the turn if he bets.

If he just calls, bet the turn and river if no A or K or Q shows up.

[mmcd]

A fairly typical line for a big pair here heads up would be to wait for the turn (or maybe the river in the case of AA) to raise after being checkraised on this flop. If he has jj he might 3 bet here for more info. otherwise I think more often then not he waits. If he has AK or JJ, then obvioulsy this line is best, If he has KK or QQ then it ends up costing 2 big bets to find out you're beat, and he has AA it might end up costing 3bb or maybe even 4 (if you think he's capable of bluff-raising the river, prolly not in this case) Given the situation of being ready to leave and not wanting to blow off too many chips on this hand, I like check-calling the flop and leading the turn here, that way, although risking giving AK a cheap card, you can find out where you're at for 1.5bb after the flop.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
What do I do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check-raise the flop and lead the turn unless an A or K comes off in which case the show is over /images/graemlins/cool.gif.

Pay off his 3-bet of your check-raise and fold the turn bet unimproved.

Garland

[elysium]

hi vehn

don't get technical in this spot vehn, just check-call him down unless an A or K hits. you can check-fold the turn if he is expecting you to call, but if you've recently made what this opponent may be inclined to think is a suspiciously weak tight fold, whether it actually was a weak fold or not, then check-call him down. you will always have the option to run a play against him if he will release. and this type opponent may just release, so you must consider that possibility, otherwise just check-call it.

did i mention that you could also check-call the flop and check-fold the turn? let me look......yep, i mentioned that earlier. anything else vehn? you know sklansky isn't paying me for this. maybe i'd better get back into action and see if any of my advice really works. who knows?

[Yeknom58]

Why in the world would you check call the flop, then lead the turn. Now assuming you're behind and you can safely fold to a raise on the turn you lose 1.5BB post flop. If you CR the flop and fold to a 3 bet you lose 1BB post flop.

It seems to me your plan charges AK the least and you lose the most when you're behind. Not a good combination in my opinion. In addition by check raising the flop you give AK a chance to fold on the flop while you're ahead.

[Yeknom58]

"I think folding the turn would be wrong...If i observe enough of you playing that way i would be taking shots at you whole night...not sure if you want to play whole night out of position with people jumping all over you..."

This is one of those statements that one of the senior posters used in a totally different situation and now you're barfing it up as applying here. Dude...this guy is a rock, who just 3 bet your UTG raise. What exactly do you think he has, even if it looks weak it's still correct to fold when you're 99% sure you're beat.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
Why in the world would you check call the flop, then lead the turn. Now assuming you're behind and you can safely fold to a raise on the turn you lose 1.5BB post flop. If you CR the flop and fold to a 3 bet you lose 1BB post flop.

It seems to me your plan charges AK the least and you lose the most when you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the times you check raise on the flop and don't get three-bet, but instead get popped on the turn?

Or the times you check raise the flop, get called, and then the turn brings an ace or king?

Both these scenarios make check-calling the flop and then leading on the (non ace/king) turn a just as viable option.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
I think folding the turn would be wrong...If i observe enough of you playing that way i would be taking shots at you whole night...not sure if you want to play whole night out of position with people jumping all over you...

[/ QUOTE ]

It's his last hand of the night who cares about image? This one fold is not going to suddenly make anyone who regularly plays in this game against Vehn more likely to take shots at him in the future. And the non-regs he'll probably never see in the game again, and if he does they'll certainly not remember this hand either.

[rtrombone]

[ QUOTE ]
If you CR the flop and fold to a 3 bet you lose 1BB post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good players will sometimes 3-bet the flop with AK and smooth-call with bigger overpairs.

[ QUOTE ]
In addition by check raising the flop you give AK a chance to fold on the flop while you're ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

To expect anyone to fold AK to a check-raise here is the height of absurdity.

Pros of the stop and go:
(1) Against many aggressive players, flop action doesn't have much meaning. You don't want to get in the habit of betting/raising and folding to a raise/reraise on the flop.
(2) The pot is smaller (a little less than 5 big bets), giving him insufficient odds to draw to his 6-outer if he does in fact hold AK.
(3) Sometimes they will raise your turn bet with AK, sensing weakness. People are far less likely to do this if you show strength on the flop.
(4) If an ace or king falls on the turn and you bet it, you can sometimes make your opponent lay down a better hand. Suppose he has JJ and you check-call the flop, only to bet the ace turn. How often is he going to put you on AK/AQ? I may have more success than most with this play because I have a very tight image, but you'd be surprised how often it works. And you can almost always fold to a raise, of course.

Finally, making this play with a hand provides cover for those times you make it without a hand.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why in the world would you check call the flop, then lead the turn. Now assuming you're behind and you can safely fold to a raise on the turn you lose 1.5BB post flop. If you CR the flop and fold to a 3 bet you lose 1BB post flop.

It seems to me your plan charges AK the least and you lose the most when you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the times you check raise on the flop and don't get three-bet, but instead get popped on the turn?

Or the times you check raise the flop, get called, and then the turn brings an ace or king?

Both these scenarios make check-calling the flop and then leading on the (non ace/king) turn a just as viable option.

[/ QUOTE ]

Checkraising the flop and folding to the three bet could be big trouble. A lot of guys will put a third bet in here with a big ace, planning on checking behind the turn.

[1800GAMBLER]

Call. Call. Fold. By the sounds of it, there's no way he will ever bet the river with just AK so you can safely fold when you get there, meanwhile the pot with the fact he's 24:16 to be beating to you is keeping you there.

No raises/checkraises will give you enough information to use either.

[Yeknom58]

Our hero stated, "He plays fast on the flop as well from what I've observed" and "He is the prototypical "never have to pay off"

That's why I think this statement doesn't apply.

"What about the times you check raise on the flop and don't get three-bet, but instead get popped on the turn? "


Our hero's read is the main reason why I think the CR on the flop is probably the best option here. Now without a read I would consider other options as better. Such as check/call and bet turn.

You also stated,

"Or the times you check raise the flop, get called, and then the turn brings an ace or king?"

Then you're screwed and should fold or bluff some of the time if he would actually fold JJ/QQ in this spot.

[mplspoker]

check call him all the way down, unless ACE pops.

[Vehn]

[ QUOTE ]
Against Mr. Rocky here, I would C/R the flop, if he 3bets, check fold the turn if he bets.

If he just calls, bet the turn and river if no A or K or Q shows up.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what happened, I was 3 bet on the flop, called and reluctantly folded the turn blank and went home in a bad mood /images/graemlins/tongue.gif. I get the feeling though that the line of check call, check call, check fold is slightly better. He may check behind the river with a worse hand, I may get the opportunity to bluff him on an ace, and I may suck on out on the river, all for the same price. I dunno.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
A fairly typical line for a big pair here heads up would be to wait for the turn (or maybe the river in the case of AA) to raise after being checkraised on this flop. If he has jj he might 3 bet here for more info. otherwise I think more often then not he waits. If he has AK or JJ, then obvioulsy this line is best, If he has KK or QQ then it ends up costing 2 big bets to find out you're beat, and he has AA it might end up costing 3bb or maybe even 4 (if you think he's capable of bluff-raising the river, prolly not in this case) Given the situation of being ready to leave and not wanting to blow off too many chips on this hand, I like check-calling the flop and leading the turn here, that way, although risking giving AK a cheap card, you can find out where you're at for 1.5bb after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Vehn said that this dude plays fast on the flop with a hand and that you don't have to pay him off when in doubt. I've never in my life, so far as I recall, folded on the flop heads up with an overpair on a rag board but this seems like an unusual opponent for this limit and I'm just trying to put together the information that was provided in the post.

[LarsVegas]

Elysium's advice is excellent. Actually, against a fairly sane, straight-forward player, you could actually check-call the flop AND turn, yet check-fold the river in about one in three or four.

Most solid players will bet their unimproved AK again on the turn, with position heads-up from the flop and onwards, rather (and just about ALWAYS unless improved ON the river) take a free showdown.

There could also be made a case for a check-call, check-call, bet... line, however this also has downsides, particularly against expert players.

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A fairly typical line for a big pair here heads up would be to wait for the turn (or maybe the river in the case of AA) to raise after being checkraised on this flop. If he has jj he might 3 bet here for more info. otherwise I think more often then not he waits. If he has AK or JJ, then obvioulsy this line is best, If he has KK or QQ then it ends up costing 2 big bets to find out you're beat, and he has AA it might end up costing 3bb or maybe even 4 (if you think he's capable of bluff-raising the river, prolly not in this case) Given the situation of being ready to leave and not wanting to blow off too many chips on this hand, I like check-calling the flop and leading the turn here, that way, although risking giving AK a cheap card, you can find out where you're at for 1.5bb after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never in my life, so far as I recall, folded on the flop heads up with an overpair on a rag board

[/ QUOTE ]


Against certain live opponents it is definately possible to be able to confidently muck an overpair on the flop. This situation was certainly different, but in a 20/40 earlier this summer, I open raised QQ utg, a loose wierd type coldcalled right next to me (he was one of those pl/nl players who liked to splash around a lot with position, and didn't really adjust his preflop hand selection, and a very tight pro 3-bet. 3 of us to a flop of 7-5-2, I check/fold. There was no way, especially after the coldall, that this guy was gonna 3-bet me w AK or JJ. I was confident enough I was beat that I didn't even bother putting 1 bet in the flop. The point is TT could be easily folded on a rag flop against certain types of opponents live.

(In the end, the tight player got his KK cracked by the other guys 64s in a big pot)

[elindauer]

Seems pretty simple. Check and call. If an ace or king hits, check and fold.

my 2 cents.
Eric

[3rdCheckRaise]

What does "safely fold" means??? Letting someone outplay you? Folding when you behind? Giving up on the hand where you not sure where you are?
A lot of solid players will try to rescue thier AKs, AQs or 99 by raising the turn. Now does that mean your fold to a raise is a "safe" one? The point here is that you just do not know where you are and heads up, against a tough opponent, you not likely to find out. So yes, i will pay off when i am behind and will take his bluff when behind.

[vehns_woman]

At the risk of getting this account banned as well here's an interesting (to me) follow up to this. Playing today I was caught bluffing a couple times (once called on the river by KQ no pair when I had KT) in short succession while the villian in this hand was at the table. About a round before the below hand I had raised preflop in LP and was called by the button and villian in the small blind. Flop was 9 x x two spades, was checked to me, I bet, button folded, villian checkraised, I 3-bet, he called. Turn was a red jack, he now bets into me, I raise him again and he calls. River is a small spade and he bets into me again and I immediatly call and he turns over A9o. Clearly this should tell you the amount of respect he gives my bets/raises. Anyways the "interesting" hand that came up is as follows. Villian open raises 2 off the button and I call in the BB with 5c4c. Flop is A 7 2 rainbow, I check and he checks. Turn is a 6, I bet and he calls. River is a 4, I think for a while and bet and am called by his pocket tens. I think I royally screwed up this hand in a number of places but the worst was preflop. It appears I have zero bluffing equity against this opponent ever and I cannot make this call preflop (where I would normally call any other player here) if that is the case. I dunno, I need to think about this more. Click below to notify moderator.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
I have 4 racks of chips in front of me and 6 extra in my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
When I first read this far into the post, I thought you had 6 extra racks in your hand. Which would be impressive on a number of levels.

[ike]

I think this line is very very good.

[DcifrThs]

i must first assume that you threw 6 chips in the pot and not 6 racks although it does sound like you had 6 racks in your hand lol...

here is a spot where i used to c-r the flop and if called or 3 bet i'd call and be done with the hand on the turn...but sometimes that AKs flops a flush draw etc. so no matter what you do you'll never ever be happy enough with the info you get so i now check call check call check fold...this is only been learned recently and i think its probably the best line and if not it really can't be that far off. there is no way he value bets the river with just ak, but will/might bet it on the turn...

-Barron

[Losing all]

Couldn't this be an unimproved AK bluffing? If I'm calling the turn, I'm sure as hell calling the river on a 7/1 that he has ak, aq, 99.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Couldn't this be an unimproved AK bluffing? If I'm calling the turn, I'm sure as hell calling the river on a 7/1 that he has ak, aq, 99.

[/ QUOTE ]

WHO is on the river with you? "a very rocky mp"... very rocky mp will fold aq to vehn's raise. he will also NOT bet unimproved ak.

-Barron

[bicyclekick]

I check/call the flop, bet the tun on a non A or K and fold to a raise and c/f to a A or K on the turn. I check/call the river if he calls the turn.