Flop decision

[Manzanita]

I'm playing in a good $10-20 game that is quite loose.

I pick up A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif UTG and limp. We end up 7-handed for a single bet.

The flop comes J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. The BB, a loose weak player, bets out. I'm next to act; what's my best play? Assume that a raise here would narrow the field down to one or two opponents, but that if I just smooth-call I'll probably end up facing three or four players.

I'll post my action and the results later.

-- Manzanita

[Nightwish]

You should have raised preflop.

Given that you didn't, I would smooth call this flop and raise the turn.

[ike]

I agree that he should have raised PF, however I still think he needs to raise the flop. Dominated flush draws aren't going anywhere if you raise but nonspade overcards will fold. This is exactly what you want.

[Garland]

Wow, what a dream flop.

I guess the question is whether to let others hang around for your flush draw or protect your TPTK.

Your flush will come about 1/3 the time and you'll probably improve to a flush, two pair or trip Js about 54% of the time, each of these seeming to be winners. Your hand has an excellent chance of standing up on its own.

If you smooth call and let the others in, you're doing it at the risk of what? Overcards? 3 non /images/graemlins/spade.gif Kings, 3 non /images/graemlins/spade.gif Queens. Maybe some obscure straight draw out there?

I think the overlay of having so many loose opponents outways the risk you take by letting other players in cheaply. I'd smooth call here, see what develops in terms of betting, look at the turn and go from there.

Garland

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
You should have raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the game is quite loose and a limpfest (7 players!), I think this AJs works well for a limp UTG due to its drawing nature. AJo is definitely a raise or fold hand UTG though.

Garland

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm playing in a good $10-20 game that is quite loose.

I pick up A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif UTG and limp. We end up 7-handed for a single bet.

The flop comes J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. The BB, a loose weak player, bets out. I'm next to act; what's my best play? Assume that a raise here would narrow the field down to one or two opponents, but that if I just smooth-call I'll probably end up facing three or four players.

I'll post my action and the results later.

-- Manzanita

[/ QUOTE ]

I also think this is one of those times when calling is okay. The reason is that the two lower-ranked cards on the board are so unlikely to have helped anyone in terms of pair or straight possibilities.

If the board instead were something like J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, then raising would definitely be correct.

[CK1]

There is no need for a fancy play. No one will know that you are on a nut flush draw. If a spade hits and some else makes a flush, you will get action independent of how you play the flop. .

Raise it.

CK

[JasonP530]

I would just call. People who are calling have very few outs, and are likely to pay you all the way if you dont raise. Even if someone is lucky enough to make 2 pair, you can redraw on them in a lot ways. The other advantage to calling is that if it gets raised behind you, you can reraise and either get some dead money in there, or make a large pot with a hand that looks to win over 50% of the time.

[Emoney]

i think this is a very close decision. because it was an unraised pot you can't eliminate 66 being out there. but you wouldn't assume that until someone gave you reason to. the big factor to me is that there are still 5 people left to act. you're ahead of KJ,QJ, and JT all of whom may raise behind you because of the flush draw out there. furthermore you have all the flush draws beaten who will likely call two bets on the flop. as long as the board doesn't pair on the turn you'd be golden.

with 8 bets in the pot already i'd raise. mainly because all the hands that would call two bets and not one are hands that you are a favorite against, save 66 which you have odds to draw against. while all the hands that would fold are hands that you don't want in the pot, ie naked 6s and 3s that could catch two pair or overcards. i think KJ and QJ call, KJ possibly 3-betting. if you get raised you can cap and trap everyone in between you and the 3-bettor into paying your nut flush draw.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Call and hope for more callers and a late position raise then backraise for value. If you get a raise immediately behind you don't be afraid to overrepresent your immediate strength and jam with the flush outs.

If you call and only get a few callers (still not bad) and a low card blank comes on the turn then raise if the BB leads out or bet if he checks.

~ Rick

[bernie]

7 players limped. This 'raggy' board could be hit by many players here who limped. Especially LPs and blinds. If players are 'quite loose' you'll likely get some callers behind you. Hell, you may even get 3 bet behind you by a smaller flush draw. 45s would really give you action. 45 of a different suit is calling a raise. Many, many hands will cold call here. Some will even 3 bet. The ones that may fold, you might want them to fold anyways.

Im raising it. You're far from a lock. Time for a little protection.

Unless you have a crystal ball and see your flush hitting, then let em in.

Be a shame to lose this to a gutshot or 2 pair that you could've got out sooner.

b

[elindauer]

Raise. Knock out those overcards to give yourself a better chance to win this good sized pot unimproved. You shouldn't be too disappointed if they choose to call your raise though.

my 2 cents.
Eric

[steveyz]

I'd raise this pre-flop.

But as for the flop, given your description, I probably just call and re-raise/cap if it's raised behind you.

[Senor Choppy]

This is a horrible spot to raise. The pot is relatively small and there are almost no hands you would want to force out here.

Call and wait for the turn, unless it's raised behind you, then go nuts on the flop.

[Emoney]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a horrible spot to raise. The pot is relatively small and there are almost no hands you would want to force out here.

Call and wait for the turn, unless it's raised behind you, then go nuts on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can think of plenty of hands i'd want to force out. KQ, 56, 76, 86, late position could even be playing a K6. all hands that would fold for two cold. while almost every hand that calls two cold is a hand he wants in the pot. KJ, QJ, JT, J9, any two spades, 45.

i thought it was a close between the two choices though. if there weren't 5 to act behind i'd probably call-reraise. if two people call two cold and the initial bettor calls then you've put as much money into the pot as there would've been had all 5 people called behind you (unlikely).

[3rdCheckRaise]

You got the perfect flop, milk it.Smooth call and pray for a wierd looking draw to raise in the late position and jam it right back at him. If unraised jam it on the turn. This is one of those pots that can make the whole session don't be afraid to risk and not raise the flop.

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if two people call two cold and the initial bettor calls then you've put as much money into the pot as there would've been had all 5 people called behind you (unlikely).

[/ QUOTE ]

You would make the same on the flop, and then lose a chance to force your opponents to put in 2 on the turn.

[Roy Hobbs]

I agree with ike. Charge the dominated hands, lose the overcards.

RH

[Roy Hobbs]

With the nut flush draw, I think the call/raise the turn strategy is mistaken. That is likely to shut out players who you want to make their hand on the river (presuming that the turn is a blank). Raise on the flop.

RH

RH

[Manzanita]

Thank you all for your comments!

First I'll tell you how the hand played out -- and then I'll tell you how I wished I would have played the hand.

To refresh your memory the flop was J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and I was holding A /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Bad beats were rampant in this loose game; I decided to raise in order to charge the chasers. I actually ended up getting 3 callers instead of the two I anticipated. The turn card was the 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I bet out, a player folded, and then the cutoff (a loose-aggressive who frequently overplayed his hand) raised. The BB folded and I called the raise. The river was a brick. I check-called the cutoff's bet and lost to his J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

In retrospect, I think that (1) I should have open-raised preflop given the nature of this game; and (2) I should have just called the BB's flop bet rather than raised.

-- Manzanita

[Emoney]

[ QUOTE ]

In retrospect, I think that (1) I should have open-raised preflop given the nature of this game; and (2) I should have just called the BB's flop bet rather than raised.

-- Manzanita

[/ QUOTE ]

why do you wish you called? you got 3 callers to your raise. the guy who beat you sucked out with 3 outs. yeah it sucks, but imo you played it right.

[1800GAMBLER]

Jesus i can't believe how many people said just call. RAISE.

The poster's assumption of 'yet if i call i will get x number of callers' is based on hands that had happened before, hand which have different flops and different action. There's no way on this flop there's a BIG range in the number of calls if you raise/call. J,s, flush draws, 45 are all calling two bets as easily as one, the only hand that you may lose is 6,x MAYBE some single overcard hands. So according to the posters assumption of 'a raise here would narrow the field down to one or two opponents, but that if I just smooth-call I'll probably end up facing three or four players.' would mean 1 - 3 people are holding these droppable hands.

In short it's very very unlikely you will get 3x more callers when you call than when you raise. (2x doesn't apply because you would rather go 4bets against 2 players than 4bets against 4 players of course).

The only reason for calling is if you have a STRONG belief it will get raised behind you. Which, thanks to the board again, seems unlikely.

[LarsVegas]

Often, in "quite loose" games, an UTG limp will almost guarantee 5-way action or more, while an UTG raise will often narrow the field dramatically (as opposed to a "very loose" game, where an UTG raise will only mean a BIGGER family pot in terms of bets in the pot).

Therefore, I like the under the gun limp with AJs. Actually I like it with almost all suited, big cards in a game like this. Much more important and correct to open-raise big pairs and AK/AQ offsuit.

On the flop, I would call if I had only flopped the nut flush draw, inviting other players in, and keeping the draw cheap, as I am expecting to have to show down a winner anyway. If I sit behind a bet and a couple of callers, I raise for value and to keep them tied to the pot if I hit.

But with the top pair/top kicker and nut flush draw, I raise. It's not a slowplay hand like top set. Actually, I wouldn't slowplay any hands in the game you describe.

The thing is, I don't mind so much how many who calls. If I get one caller fine, two callers fine, three callers fine. More players decreases my chance of winning unimproved or even if I catch two pair or trips. But more players also give me better odds on making the winning hand or having my hand holding up.

So my focus on the flop is not how many callers I get, that is that I get to put in some bets when I have flopped a big hand as this.

On the turn I would consider 3-betting, only a set is likely to four-bet you, and you have plenty of outs to improve against twopair, and you are going to a showdown anyway. If four-bet, you can safely fold if unimproved on the river, costing you one more bet than playing it the way you did, and at the same time, you *could* get more action if you catch your flush, having put in four bets on the turn heads-up.

lars

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
In retrospect, I think that ((2) I should have just called the BB's flop bet rather than raised.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why? You charged the hell out of the 3 outer to come in and beat you + you got 3 coldcallers behind you on the flop raise. I think you played it fine. You also got alot of value on your draw with that flop raise.

If you're going to wait for the turn to 'protect' your hand, the pot on the flop is size enough to start protecting. You're in a win win here on the flop. It's not atrocious that you got 3 coldcallers behind you when you have TPTK + nut flush draw. That's a dream.

If you raised preflop, which i would agree with, the pot would be big enough to try and jam for value as more may stay in for the turn since the pot is bigger. Meaning, i'd still raise this flop.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, I would call if I had only flopped the nut flush draw, inviting other players in, and keeping the draw cheap, as I am expecting to have to show down a winner anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on the high card on the flop, I would raise so my 2 overcard outs may be good. Maximzing my chances if i fold anyone, along with pure value of the raise. Why? You could have a nut flush draw + 2 overs (15 outs). Even against a single opponent if he has top pair, you're making money. Anyone else calling is bonus.

b

[elysium]

hi mangsk

easy raise. your raise should be called in enough spots to give it value over any possible value play, such as a call reraise. peddle to the metal here man. keep raising.

[Manzanita]

bernie,

IMHO it is a close decision as to whether to call the flop bet or to raise. I think that the fact that there was no concensus one way or the other with respect to the responses attests to this.

The reason that I raised the flop was because I was thinking that I needed to protect my hand. But after more thought, I now believe that my hand is strong enough that I should have been thinking about how to maximize my gain (in which case I think just calling the BB's flop bet is correct).

The fact that I got 3 callers on the flop is beside the point. If I would have guessed that I would get three callers (instead of the one or two that I anticipated) then I agree that raising the flop is the superior play.

Thanks again for your comments!

-- Manzanita